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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifle Photos & Archive

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Rare Collath double rifle pictures
      #63072 - 26/09/06 10:10 AM

Posting for Johann who owns the rifle and for PWM who is an authority on Collaths. They would tell you more about this beautiful rifle.

Best wishes and good hunting!







--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #63076 - 26/09/06 12:19 PM

Nice Mehul.

A few years ago I got to handle my first Collath drilling at a gunshow and I was really impressed. Neat guns.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: Chasseur]
      #63080 - 26/09/06 01:38 PM

thank you mehul, this is indeed a rare on, chambeed for a 500express cartridge with a 86mm = 3 3/8"long case.
first one I ever see and a little bit of mystery. I believe this was only made from collath and started as the latetest update for tha 500bpe around 1900 but was then load only with nitro. the 1914 collath catalog shows the 423 grain softpoint with 4 gramm Rottweil powder No.5 when the 10,75 with the 350 grain bullet have 4,2gramm of this powder.
have you got the pics from the old catalogs mehul, please post it here again if possible.
Designation for this cartridge is 500x86, thats not realy typical for a german cartridge, it have to called 12,7x86R 500 Exp.
Teschner &Collath was a allways a firm , going owns ways.
this "Exenter Verschluß" action starting around 1860 as a needle fire gun and is much older than other break breech action except the lefaucheux underlever


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: pwm]
      #63110 - 27/09/06 03:00 AM

PWM,

I don't have pictures from any old Collath catalogue with me... You must be confusing me with someone else, I think. I have some old catalogues and books which are still in India and which I hope to have shipped here in January but a Collath catalogue is not among them.

Or, if you have mailed me the catalogue pictures, I shall check and post them rightaway.

Good hunting, my friend,





--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #63119 - 27/09/06 03:34 AM

check your e-mail, I will send you the pics again if the last one was lost in cyperspace

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: pwm]
      #63132 - 27/09/06 01:37 PM

PWM,

Just checked my mail and I didn't find the article there. Please resend it and I'll post it here.

Thanks,

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Collath_500BPE
.300 member


Reged: 30/08/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Europe, Austria
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #63136 - 27/09/06 04:28 PM

Hi Mehul,
thanks for posting my rifle.The DR has been built in 1912 and had also a shotgun barrel 16/65.Unfortunately the shotgun barrel escaped during the time.The length of the DR barrel is 655mm and is from WS ( Wittner Stahl= Wittner Steel Company )A very exzellent steel a that time.The rifle no.is 13283 and maybe someone in the world is an owner of a Collath 16/65 shotgun with that barrel no.
The proof marking of the DR barrel 11708.12 and of the shotgun barrel 11707.12.
The total length of the rifle is 1080mm and the barrels are
very bright and free of rust.The gun has also nitro proof
stampings from Vienna (NPV).
Is there anyone who owns an original cartridge or shell ???
regards Johann from Austria


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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #63166 - 28/09/06 05:30 AM

Johann

I send mehul some pics from old catalogs, hope he can post it here next time.
original rounds will be very expensive if you find it, I know some members of the ECRA but think you want get it under 100 euro per round if on hand.
Do you load for the gun?
Original bullet weigth was 435grain with the tesco KUPFER-Nickelmantel Geschoss with a.506 dia. at the driving bands. this bullet was a special collath development to hold pressure down with nitro in old blackpowder guns.
Maybe a good idea to talk with Delsing in germany, he make fine and inexpensive softpoints on demand.
But I wouldnt order anything without a chamber cast and slug the bore for rigth diameter.
Brass? many will take 3,25" long 500 Nitro brass, there are only 3,3mm from 82,5mm to 86mm.
Make a try with Horneber, what I know Horneber is making also the brass for the blackpowder express ammo from Waffen- Dorfner in Wien and he is allways willing to help if you are willing to wait some time.
Its like stone age now but Nonte "cartridge Conversions" comes back in mind and his method of spinning a case to greater length.
Thats seems no witchcraft to make 3,5mm with this.


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: pwm]
      #63279 - 01/10/06 12:58 PM

Posting, but late as usual - I hope that I ame xcused for the delay.

PWM's message is as below:

dear mehul

I send you here some more pics
1. from the 1914 collath catalog, the double rifles

2. the cartridge from this catalog

3. the case in the 1904 DWM case catalog, I believe only DWM make it and collath load this cartridge in the dwm case with collath headstamp

4. the tesco bullets in the 1908 RWS bullet catalog
collath give a load of 4 gramm Rottweil Blaettchenpulver No.5 with a 27,5 gramm softpoint
load for the 10,75x68 mauser was 4,2gramm of this powder wiith 22 gramm bullet if i am rigth here.
So I think it was more than nitro for blackpowder
Designation "500x86" is very uncommon for a german cartridge , it have to be 12,7x86R 500 but teschner and collath allways goes their own way.

hope all will happen
lars










--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #63286 - 01/10/06 03:12 PM

OK, well done, the rifle we have here is of course the one in the middle of the catalog page. cost 300 reichsmark before the great europaen civil war starts. you may notice that this system cost less than the guns with other actions, maybe because it wasnt made from Collath but other makers or the Collath action was simpler to make(what I also believe). Its impressive in any case that an action starting as a blackpowder shotgun action around 1860 was strong enough to deal with nitro express cartridges.
We are happy to have an illustration of the 500x86 in the same catalog, showing here, maybe the only one existing.
RWS bullet catalog shows the whole family of tesco Kupfernickelmantelgeschoße, its was knowing from army tests for the new 8x57IS spitzer bullet that nickel plated copper jackets give the lowest pressure of all jacket variations.
Teschner-Collath use this for develop a softpoint bullet for old blackpowder guns, the modern 9,3x72R loadt is it allways in fact.
the 500 bullet is the last one:22,5mm long, 27,gramm/423 grains weigth, dia. 12,8mm/.503, driving bands dia.506.
this does not meaning that this Collath double rifle here have a .506 dia. barrel, but maybe. This bullet was make for all 500 express guns from any maker and you know how the barrels can differ.
I dont know if RWS was the maker of the tesco bullets in this time, it can be that RWS was only a distributor.
The DWM catalog shows the case next to the 500BPE 3"case. This case have the DWM case number 72 and the 500x86 get the case number 72A, meaning it was developt from the orignal number 72.
the most used 500 express cartridge in germany and austria back in good old days was the 12,7x60R 500, follow by the 12,7x65R 500. original 500BPE 3" was seeing as unnessesary heavy for continental hunting. the DWM catalog here have the 12,7x60R 500 with number97 and a very rare 12,7x52R 500 with number196 but not the 12,7x65R.
German designation for express cartridges are clear: caliberxcase length : R for rimmed case : caliber of the british mother cartridge.
Example: 8x57 R 360 - not confuse with 8x57 IR or 8x57 IRS, this is also a 8mm x57mm rimmed but basic case was the 360BPE 2 1/4"
btw, bullet section in the 1904 DWM catalog shows 570 grain full metall jacket and 477 grain softpoint with a .5118 diameter for case number 72 , 72 A and 97, that seems heavy and thick. the 570 FMJ in the12,7x60R 500 ? seems to be 500BPE from hell, dont belive it.

Edited by pwm (01/10/06 03:15 PM)


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Collath_500BPE
.300 member


Reged: 30/08/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Europe, Austria
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #69118 - 09/01/07 12:56 AM

here are some more photos.
regards Johann [url=http://]web page


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Collath_500BPE
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Reged: 30/08/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Europe, Austria
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #69158 - 09/01/07 04:56 PM

I hope it works now [image](IMG)http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/collath_500BPE/IMG_1573.jpg(/IMG)[/image]

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #69161 - 09/01/07 06:22 PM

Try this link.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/collath_500BPE/IMG_1573.jpg

Thank you for sharing this beautiful rifle

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

Edited by AkMike (09/01/07 06:25 PM)


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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #69168 - 09/01/07 08:47 PM



--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp


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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: bulldog563]
      #69170 - 09/01/07 08:51 PM

Quite an interesting lock up mechanism. Can you tell us more about it?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp


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Collath_500BPE
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Reged: 30/08/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Europe, Austria
Re: Rare Collath double rifle pictures [Re: bulldog563]
      #69918 - 22/01/07 12:22 AM

another photo from Johann

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/collath_500BPE/IMG_1572.jpg

kind regards from Austria

Johann

PS.: now my son helped me with the posting and it is really easy!!

Edited by Collath_500BPE (22/01/07 12:31 AM)


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