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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 500grains]
      #63039 - 26/09/06 12:46 AM

500g
Are you familiar with Hollands 8 dram 10 paradox or the steel cored bullets? The bore diameter of the 10 is .805 really more of a 9. The bullets have been said to pentrate an elephant shoulder to shoulder.
I have not personally shot any elephant,yet, but I have an 8 bore gun that came with film of the previous owner using the gun in Africa in the 50's shooting elephant and a one shot stop of a charging rhino.
I don't advocate using a 3.5 to 4.5 dram 12 bore paradox on elephant but a friend just returning from Africa had an opportunity to shot a cull elephant and after it was down conducted penetration tests with a 12 paradox using bullets of 20to1. The results were surprising.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 500grains]
      #63041 - 26/09/06 01:00 AM

NitroX Thanks.....will try to find out where i can get that.

Seem i have initiated some kind of bloody war here!

Well.....

I think BP and Nitro are two entirely different kettles of fish.......

Nitro/smokeless is simply the standard,modern use powder,is it not?

BP is a whole other story.....we are talking historic legendary rounds versus ones which though famed,came towards the end of the great hunts and explorations.

If we look at the greatest hunters,and explorers,we see that they did their work using BP and even rather worryingly muzzle loaders, when faced with huge and angry game.

So far it seems the 4 bore is the biggest round in the express guns,at least in existent use/past use.

It also appears that this is so hard to fire,that a 4 bore nitro version isnt even possible in a shoulder gun.(24.5mm x 98mm....yes? well who would be able to fire this in a nitro version?)

So with nitro,we stand in a time with very restricted hunting, and only the very wealthy indeed being able to hunt the huge game,such as Rhino and Ele.

Has anyone here actually hunted ele? and succeeded? with what round? what size was your ele?......early hunters often talked of 5-6 ton bulls.

BP is actually the main cause behind the lack of ele and such left to hunt!.......there was no nitro,back when......

But then so excessive were the big rounds, that they were/are very hard to use,it seems.

Give your opinions......what would knock down a 6 ton bull better,a 4 bore ball/conical, or a .600 NE round of 900g? or up it if you wish...a 2 bore ball/conical, versus a .700 NE round of 1000g+?

Usually people say if something works it doesnt need fixing.....the BP's worked well enough to leave us with little left to hunt,and many many famous stories. Nitro was handiest in its smokeless properties surely,more so than anything else? I am sure Nitro will be abandoned for something else, god only knows what.....laser double anyone? not for me thanks!

Cheers

Ben

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #63049 - 26/09/06 03:27 AM

DT

My opinion is that "Hatari Times" is about the best African hunting magazine. As long as I get my four copies per subscription I am happy to wait a while for them. I would rather have quality and well written articles than "page stuffing" articles simply to make up the copy. I think the magazines are a bit of a 'hobby' for Mr Wolf abeit hopefully one that covers his (production) costs plus.

Just my opinion, obviously each consumer must make their own choice as to what is acceptable to them. And Harald Wolf does explain the release "schedules" or lack of them (!) upfront too.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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jaz
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 500grains]
      #63075 - 26/09/06 11:37 AM

500 grains, forgive me, but you are far off base. Please state your experience. For pure data, read Sherman Bell's article in DGJ, Winter 2003. It will be your wake up call. Sherman tests a mutual friends 8 bore and sites his experience in Africa. This gentleman has killed over 30 elephants with a wide variety of weapons. The 8 bore has no equal. Forensic exams were done on several elephants shot with the 8. Frontal brain shots penetrated up to 31 inches. The shortest of three was stopped at 16" because it hit a tooth. Sherman sites Taylors knock out value, a guide universally agreed to be the standard. In it he compares a .470 nitro to an 8 bore rifle.The KO value for the 470 is 72, the 8 bore 190!! Sherman goes on to explain kinetic energy and why these guns were the real stoppers.

The reason the bore rifles were replaced was because of the weight difference and ease of carrying, period. A .577 was 5 lbs lighter, with no smoke screen, but no way can you compare the stopping power.

Paradox guns were built lighter as there was no rifling, hence less recoil. I own a Nitro H&H 10 bore, 13.5 pounds, built in 1908. Why would they make this gun while the nitro .577 was available for 7 years! Gatsby had it right, a steel core bullet, weighing 920 grains is a stopper, period.

The most underated of all is the 12 bore Paradox. Yes you can shoot a buffalo and it will go right through him as has been experienced by several people in the last few years. Take this same gun and shoot quail!

As Marraki stated, these guns are the least understood.

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: jaz]
      #63079 - 26/09/06 01:24 PM

Jaz,
My good friend and paradox affcionado, I wondered where you've been during this debate! We need to duplicate this steel cored bullet. It should be much easier than the LT, no?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: gatsby]
      #63093 - 26/09/06 09:58 PM

Gatsby,
I will usually only step in when the truth needs to be told... We do need to post a few pics though. An archive of fine guns is something everyone enjoys.
Z

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Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: NitroX]
      #63094 - 26/09/06 10:11 PM

NitroX
i couldnt agree more that its a fine magazine, but i rarely get them ...i have rec'd a maximum of 4 issues in the past 3 yrs.
every time that i think the magazine is out of business, one seems to appear.

i have learned that Wolfe publishes only when he has enough material and it makes good sense rather than printing drivel but i didnt learn that from him and i ceratinly dont recall him mentioning that fact (up front or otherwise)when he was selling advertising space.

I will send correspondence and see if i can get the latest issue as i really do enjoy the stuff he puts out



--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: gatsby]
      #63095 - 26/09/06 10:21 PM

Gatsby:
Here's a few more words on the 10-bore nitro paradox, from the Holland catalogue of the day. Steel-cored bullet is illustrated, recovered from elephant!





If you can figure out how to make 'em in 12-bore (.735 dia.) for a half-reasonable price I'll take a hundred!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: Marrakai]
      #63115 - 27/09/06 03:12 AM

Hi

Is that 10 bore nitro H&H a full nitro 10 or loaded as a nitro for bp would be?

i.e. 55 grains pistol cordite or????

Beautiful gun i bet,and pricey too.......the day will come for me!

Ben

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #63116 - 27/09/06 03:25 AM

Gentlemen,

In India the Paradox/Explora/Fauneta guns were used to take virtually all the game available there. The combination was so popular that even mass market manufacturers like Harrington and Richardson produced single barreled shotguns with the front of the barrel rifled for farmers and aspiring brown sahibs who might be invited on a hunt with a maharaja or a zamindar. I am no expert on dangerous game - have never shot any and most probably never will, but even with my old smoothbore Savage 12 bore in India I found that large boars would go down very fast if hit in the right place at the ranges typical there - 20 to 30 yards. The 12 bore with ball may be considered a low powered round compared with most rifle rounds but I have seen boars hit with 30-06 and 7mm rifles which have not dropped any faster. As a matter of fact it is my clear recollection that they game dropped faster when hit with my shotgun. A Paradox would have done the job much better.

African game is, perhaps, much tougher than Indian game, and that is why I don't know if it could be hunted with PAradox guns. That said, for most other hunting, these old fashioned guns should be perfect at moderate ranges. One of the Italian gunmakers (I forget which one at the moment) makes a Paradox 12 gun these days but with only one barrel Paradox rifled. I wish they would offer it in the USA with both barrels Paradox rifled. It would be a very nice deer gun in the shotgun for deer areas in the Midwest.

Good hunting!


--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #63117 - 27/09/06 03:30 AM

Ben,

In 1993 (I think) Rigby made a 10 bore rifle with barrels from Joseph Hambrusch and the rifle was used to hunt Cape Buffalo in Tanzania. Gun Digest article carried a detailed article on the gun, on the loads developed for it and of the hunt. I have a copy but it is with my personal library in India. If someone has a copy here, they may scan and e-mail it to those who may be interested. From what I recall, the rifle performed admirably on the hunt with the new, Nitro for BP type loads developed for it by Rigby at the time. Subsequently, Paul Roberts sold Rigby to the present owners and they decided not to make these rifles anymore, I guess. You would enjoy reading the article if you find it, espoecially because you're interested in the subject.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #63120 - 27/09/06 04:20 AM

Gentleman

most of you will remember the times 15-20 years ago when you dont had have the questions what is the best bullet or what is the best brass but where the hell you can get reloading stuff for your old gun.
not to talk about factory ammo for rare Nitro Express caliber.
Something is happen since then.
I am only 39 now but have learned that a man can be happy with only on rifle, well it was long way. What have we seen in the last years. there was a time when I was thinking to be the only one on this planet loading pinfire cartridges, for needle fire guns you have no championchips here by the krauts.
when the most, when not all about the nitro express cartridges is discovered, shooter's looking for more strange stuff. Isnt it like a time machine, we going back more and more because we wish to know more, that human to.
I dare to say that 15 years in future the bore guns will be back in mind again. not that everyone will have one, no, but I remeber the days when 458 Win mag and 375 H&H are the only big rounds you can get, its only 15 years ago!!!!!

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: pwm]
      #63122 - 27/09/06 04:39 AM

Hi all

Thanks Mehul, the 10 bore is located at; www.empiregunsight.co.uk but price is a bit much for me........

So,these guns were very capable it seems.

PWM, you are right,the interest is growing......prices have even doubled over the last 2 years or so.

The bp guns are most interesting.........some come in the weirdest forms.......like a 4 bore cape i once saw for sale.

Cheers

Ben

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #63130 - 27/09/06 12:44 PM

In reply to:

Poster: mehulkamdar
Subject: Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO???

Ben,

In 1993 (I think) Rigby made a 10 bore rifle with barrels from Joseph Hambrusch and the rifle was used to hunt Cape Buffalo in Tanzania. Gun Digest article carried a detailed article on the gun, on the loads developed for it and of the hunt. I have a copy but it is with my personal library in India. If someone has a copy here, they may scan and e-mail it to those who may be interested.




If someone has it can they email it to
Photos@NitroExpress.com

Thankyou.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: NitroX]
      #63172 - 28/09/06 10:01 AM

NitroX

Is this not the other one thats up for sale here on the link i posted??? Sorry im a bit clueless......

Ben

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