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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Loc: Southeastern USA
500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER??
      #62512 - 15/09/06 09:14 AM

Just thought I would start the "better DR" ball rolling--

Is the 500/416 a better mousetrap than the 450/400 with softs for buffalo? Solids are a completely different issue, as both calibers could pass thru the entire animal. Other forums consider solids inferior killers for put downs vs premium softs on Buff.

You are talking 2300+ fps vs 2150 and supposedly more tissue damage. The downside is that sometimes with higher velocity and energy(600+ ft pnds) you get LESS PENETRATION, more expansion and a shorter wider woundtrack.

What is noted with 500/416 softs? Are they better killers or is all this just conjecture?Do 450/400 softs penetrate further than 500/416's and thus KILL BETTER?

Thanks to all for any thoughts on this matter. [Should there be a 450/400 or a 500/416 DR on my wish list in the future?]

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (15/09/06 09:44 AM)

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62536 - 16/09/06 11:35 AM

I think one of the attributes of the 400 is the lesser amount of recoil than the 450's. It has always been 'good enough' and combined with the lighter weight, good balance and lighter recoil has worked well for 100 years.

I think that when you consider rifle weight, recoil and the better velocity you find that the 500/416 is more a substitute for a 450/470. Flatter shooting, if that is important, and as hard a hitter with the increased velocity.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62539 - 16/09/06 11:46 AM


"Other forums consider solids inferior killers for put downs vs premium softs on Buff."

Tell me how a soft is going to get through a full grown boss
on a Cape Buff and a centre hit on a Full set of horns / head on
a Asiatic Buff ?

A soft will also pull up on a Jaw bone of these animals
which is really hard.

500 Nitro

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62551 - 16/09/06 10:33 PM

500-

My comments are without any personal experience as I have unfortunately never hunted Buff.I have no experience with solids on any animal other than seeing a 350 pnd boar shot with FMJ 7.62's.It took the animal forever to expire.

I voiced the conclusion that solids have less put down killing ability after reading other African hunters opinions, and one of several discussions and opinions will be noted--
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/818102635

The shots refered to are desired broadside shots. For frontal shots I would absolutely agree and think solids would have a more prdictable path to the brain or spine.Thats the neat thing about Doubles with a soft/solid combo-you can brain 'em with a solid or whack 'em broadside with a soft.



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (16/09/06 10:34 PM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: mickey]
      #62552 - 16/09/06 11:18 PM

Mickey--

I am with little practical experience as I have only one Double but I definitely got"the bug" and must have more.

it seems that there are various catagories of "african" doubles for different classes of game to be taken at different ranges. Please correct me if my percerptions are grossly in error

Light (or all round)African level Doubles like the 9.3 or 375 flanged with the lightest relative weight and about 3000 ft pounds energy.These are good for PG out to 200+ yards, can be scoped and will do larger game(buff etc) in a tight.

MEDIUM African Doubles in the 450/400 class are generally heavier weight rifles and can take PG, big cats and Buff reliablyon up to Ele. They can used effectively scoped out to ?200 yds. Their energies run around 4000+ft pnds.

HEAVYAfrican Doubles seem to be those Doubles with 5000+ ft pnds in a 10 pound + rifle and above with less flexibilty of range for PG but excellent put down for Big DG.I guess you could ahave a SUPER HEAVY class with 577's etc as well.

I am guessing the 500/416 would fall in this last class but have extented range for PG and could be scoped for this purpose.

All the above is pure opinion and conjecture from a novice but--
If you already have a "heavy" Double in 470 or 500 and a second scoped Double is considered which one with the most flexibility(effective kill distance) for both PG and Big DG would you choose?



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (16/09/06 11:29 PM)

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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62558 - 17/09/06 02:54 AM


hopdoc,

Yes, in some ways a solid does have less "put down" ability than a soft - BUT I personally hate using those words.

A solid make a hole staright through the animals, no petals cutting flesh and IMHO not as much shock value when it hits as it doesn't open up.

But I generally don't use solids on a standard broadside shot on Buffalo. A good, Premium Hunting bullet works fine.

I have solids in the bottom of the Mag / on reload of a double for that going away shot / full on frontal shot.

Just my HO. Everyone is different.

500 Nitro

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62600 - 17/09/06 09:54 PM

The 500/416 will probably give you better penetration.
You will pay for that in increased recoil. It's a 500 case necked to .416. The .416 is a good long bullet that penetrates.

450/400 in either .411 or .408 is a good long bullet that penetrates. The recoil on the 450/400 3 inch is a lot less that the 500/416. At least it is to me!

You might search the forums on AR for post by "els".
His new Searcy 450/400 3 inch did a heck of a great job on the 3 elephants he took last year, He's now enroute to Africa this year with his 4540/400 3 inch.

I know you are searching for the "perfect" double rifle. After going thru this my own self and with others. I think you need to just buy the one you think will be best for you. That will be the best double rifle of all!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: Rusty]
      #62602 - 17/09/06 11:33 PM


If you are searching for the best double, then get the one that fits you best, regardless of whether it is a 450/400, 500/416, .470, 500/465, 476 Nitro, etc. The one that fits you best is the one that you will shoot the best and the one that you will shoot most accurately.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62862 - 22/09/06 06:19 AM

A .450/.400 or a .500/.416?

I would think the difference at the animal end will be so marginal that it is not a consideration at all.

The difference will be in trajectory and recoil.

Trajectory would only be relevant if the target is well over 100 metres away.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: NitroX]
      #62876 - 22/09/06 10:57 AM

?Revelation!

Referral to the relevant ballistic tables reveals only a 1.25 inch difference in trajectory at 200 yds with a 100yd zero for the 500/416 vs the 450/400. All this comes with much more blast ,recoil, and with the animals unable to tell the difference.

Looks like the 450/400 wins vs the 500/416, both up close and out at distance. It has less recoil and will be lighter to carry as well.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62885 - 22/09/06 01:25 PM

If I wanted a bigger hammer then a 450-400 I would rather go up in diameter then velocity.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 500/416 DR vs 450/400 SOFTS ON BUFF- BETTER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62912 - 22/09/06 11:55 PM

You are forgetting a much more versatile calibre, and that it will probably be available in more modern double rifle brands.

However as with a lot of these inconsequential cartridge choices it matters not at all at the animal end.

Asking this question is like asking the difference between a .30-06 and a .300 Mag on a stag?

Ffff all difference of course.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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