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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Double Crossed!!!
      #6218 - 29/12/03 08:52 AM

How's this for a bit of info from "The Drilling Hotline".
http://www.drillinghotline.com/double.shtml


"SXS - The argument against optics on a Side by Side is the so-called windage problem. Some recommend to only sight-in on one barrel - but this now reduces your very expensive double to a single shot rifle.

Let's examine the physics of a center line sight-in.
The rifle centers of a .470 caliber are about ½ to ¾" apart.
The rifle is regulated for the barrels to cross at 60 Meters (66 yds.).

The physics states that they will again be ¾" apart at... Answer: 120 meters

Your homework assignment is to calculate when the rifle will shoot 3 to 4" apart.
(You may use graph paper or join Members Only)

O/U - The argument against optics on an over and under rifle is the elevation difference.

That's right, but the difference can be used to your advantage. The lower barrel will give a larger midrange trajectory. A few sessions at the range will work out the unknowns".



Edited by 4seventy (29/12/03 09:11 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40465
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: 4seventy]
      #6222 - 29/12/03 03:26 PM

It is interesting applying mathematics to the trajectories of a double and under and over.

Another variable would be the increasing group size in the same propertion as a minute of angle ie if you get a 1 1/2 inch group at 60 metres theoretically you will get a 3 inch group at 120 metres, so the width of the barrels is not actually dupllicated at that distance instead the group size is straddling each other ???

With the U/O I guess he is saying as the lower barrel is crossing with a greater angle it will shoot higher for a while than the lower barrel until they trajectories cross again ???

For me and looking at them scientifically I have always associted doubles with mysticism, magic and full moons. It just happens! Especially if a "Guru" tells me it will.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: 4seventy]
      #6223 - 29/12/03 03:55 PM

A pompous ignoramus leading the blind. Why, oh why must everyone with no double rifle experience assume that the barrels will inexorably cross-fire at some predetermined range? A quality, well-regulated double will not cross-fire with the correct ammunition. If it does, the wrong load is being used or the rifle is out of regulation and needs re-regulating - or it was of poor quality to begin with. This guy is an armchair theorist.
----------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: NitroX]
      #6224 - 29/12/03 03:57 PM

Has anybody actually checked the distance that the bullets are seperated by at various differances? The post gives a mathematical formula for disance at 120 meteres. The way I understand it is a Double sort of flips the bullets out during it's recoil. Up and to the left for the left barrel and up and to the right for the right. Somewhere in that arc the bullet leaves the barrel.

If this is true than the distance the bullets are actually apart when they each leave the barrel will be greater than the distance that the barrels are apart.

Is it a direct correlation between crossing at 60 meteres and the 3/4 inches at 120 meters? What is the distance apart the bullets would be a 50 meters if they cross at 100? At 200?

Who the Hell knows? Not me, that's for sure.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40465
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Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: mickey]
      #6225 - 29/12/03 04:27 PM

Mickey

Of course you are right. I had forgotten with big bores one must take into account the time spent in the barrel and the beginning of recoil and its affect.




***

Can anyone tell me - in a U/O does the bullets actually cross the line of sight twice?

An purely theoretical example - making up the ranges.


Say a 9.3x74R U/O double.

Regulated for say 70 yards - both barrels roughing at same impact.

Is it the case the upper barrel will say cross the line of sight at say 100 yards and the lower barrel cross the line of sight again at say 120 yards?

I am assuming the lin eof sight, upper and lower barrels will all cross only at one range, but each barrel with cross again at different ranges.

Anyone correct me, or provide a different explanatiion. Thanks.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #6229 - 29/12/03 07:09 PM

Yeah, like 400 NE says, if the rifle is regulated properly, is shooting the proper regulation loads, and has the sights correctly regulated, you can totally forget all about crossover distance and barrel spacing and all the other stuff.


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: NitroX]
      #6231 - 29/12/03 07:57 PM

Nitro, actually the over under doubles are far more mystifying than side by sides.
Believe it or not the o/u bullet paths spiral around each other and therefore cross over many times.

This of course will only work on 2 trigger guns when you snap both locks at precisely the same instant, and their path could best be described as similar to a corkscrew!
Try this yourself with a eight pound 500 Nitro O/U and you will quickly sense a blurred, dizzy, rotating, head spinning sickly feeling, sometimes accompanied by visions of Elvis or John Lennon.

Southern hemisphere o/u guns usually have their spirals rotating in the opposite direction to o/u's used above the Equator.


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: NitroX]
      #6232 - 29/12/03 08:11 PM

Nitro:

.470 didn't clarify the point of his post and perhaps my assumption was incorrect, but I sure thought I got his meaning. In my experience, yes, if the barrels cross-fire say 2" at 50 yards, they will usually cross-fire 4" at 100.

Rant: on

The point is, a double rifle that does that consistently with correct ammunition NEEDS REPAIR. THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT. That is the purpose of "regulation". If we were to accept that all double rifles cross-fire and nothing could be done about it, then the barrels could simply be welded together perfectly parallel and we would accept that they would be uselessly inaccurate beyond 50 yards. No need for expensive regulation and double rifles would be cheap.

A perfectly regulated side by side rifle should print like this at 50yards, 100 yards, etc.: oo. A perfectly regulated O/U should print like this: 8. All double rifles, not just big bores, have to be built to allow for movement of the axis of the bores away from POA during barrel time. With a side by side rifle, fired from the right shoulder, the right barrel recoils in a sine arc up and out to the right. The left barrel wants to go up and left, but there is a natural resistance to this for a right handed shooter, with the result that the left recoils in an azimuth closer to the vertical. Recoil movement begins while the bullet is still in the tube and the period of this movement before the bullet leaves the barrel is called barrel time. Adjusting the convergence and divergence of the barrels so that they print to a common POI despite the barrels being headed in different directions at the moment the bullets exit is called regulation.

Because the barrels recoil away from each other during barrel time, and in different arcs, if the barrels were perfectly parallel, they would print wide, with the left well to the left of the right and higher (because the left recoils closer to the vertical during barrel time than does the right). As a result the barrels cannot be perfectly parallel in either plane. As a rough rule of thumb for nitro calibers of .400 up, the barrels are given .003" of convergence per inch of barrel length in the horizontal plane when they are brazed together. Thus, a .400 with 26" barrels will start with about .078" convergence. Likewise, they are given a similar amount of divergence in the vertical plane (this divergence is too small to see on nitros, but pay attention to the muzzles of the larger caliber BPEs - it is sometimes actually visible). When the rifle is complete, in the white, regulation is performed with the ammunition intended for it. If the barrels cross-fire, the solder between the barrels is softened with heat and the muzzle wedge is pushed in to spread the barrels apart. The opposite is done if they are shooting wide. Vertical dispersion is corrected by moving the left barrel up or down in a special jig with set screws. Ideally (and this is where the good stuff gets separated from the scrap iron), this process isn't complete until the rifle puts the rights on right and lefts on left an inch or so apart at 50 yards. Set this way, the barrels will not cross-fire at any hunting range that is sane for a double rifle. I have two that shoot like that - neither cross-fires even well out beyond 100 yards.

The addition of a scope and mounts after regulation will often mess it up. The extra weight on top of the barrels dampens movement during barrel time with the usual result (but not always - some doubles tolerate it with no change in regulation at all) of the barrels cross-firing. Thus, if the rifle is to be scoped, it should be ordered that way or re-regulated when the scope is added, if necessary.

This guy is a Krieghoff dealer and the quote appears to be in reference to rifles of that make. He seems to state that these rifles are regulated to cross at 60 meters. I've fired the Krieghoff side by side in .500/.416, .375 Flanged Magnum and 7X65R extensively. I didn't fire the .500/.416 beyond 100 yards, but it didn't cross-fire at that range. I fired the .375 and the 7X65, both of which were scoped, out to 200 yards and neither cross-fired. All three are very accurate.

The only explanation I can come up with for that quote is that he was referring to rifles that had not been reregulated after adding the scope with the expectation that they would then cross-fire, which is unacceptable (am I missing something or are we not talking about a NEW RIFLE here?). Either that, or he doesn't know much about his product, which isn't especially rare among double rifle dealers. I once bought a .450/.400 3" rifle from a dealer who has sold many hundreds, if not thousands of double rifles over the years. He promised that he would send 100 rounds of factory Kynoch along with it. He sent .450/.400 3 1/4" ammo, insisting that they were the same and it would work just fine! I know another Krieghoff dealer personally and what he doesn't know about double rifles would fill a small library.

So, just zero the scope with the most accurate barrel and use your double rifle like a single shot. Oh, PULEEEEZ.

Rant: off
--------------------------------------




--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #6233 - 29/12/03 08:16 PM

Oops. .470 clarified his meaning while I was composing the above tirade.
-------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #6244 - 30/12/03 02:31 AM

400

Excellent post and if I weren't in a hurry to go outside to freeze my butt off I would ask some questions. Later.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #6252 - 30/12/03 07:35 AM

Yeah 400, indeed a good rant.
It's amazing how often (and where) you hear or read rubbish concerning double rifles.
I have a hunting video here featuring a quite well known African PH and the commentary includes something like...
"the hunters need to get in real close because double rifles are only accurate to 50 yards".


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: 4seventy]
      #6254 - 30/12/03 08:26 AM

You can take what 400 says to the bank, for it is gold!

One thing I would like to add, though is, There is one place a scope can be sighted in very percicely to one barrel. That is in a leopard blind, where the best shot you will take will be at "ONE", and only one, of his spots, for that all important first shot. In some places, and with some PHs the hide is set at 100yds from the bait. The scope is only mounted this way when the scope is in QD rings, and bases, so it can be removed before approching the downed cat, or for any follow-up. As Mark says, for general hunting, the scope should be zeroed in the middle of the composite group, and use it the same way you use any other rifle!

I have two doubles that are fitted with QD scope rings, and bases, both shoot fine with the scope on them. I would reccomend that if you want to mount a scope after the regulation is already done, that you choose the lightest scope you can find,that will take the recoil of the rifle, and mounted as low as is posible . This may still cause a problem, but there is less chance of it!

On the O/U double rifle the barrels are easier to regulate by the maker, because they both recoil up,and back, only, but to different degrees. You have very little lateral adjustment of the barrels in the O/U. The bottom barrel recoils much streighter back than the top barrel. The bottom barrel's bore center is much closer to the center of the horrizonal, and lateral CG,of the rifle, while the top barrel is far above both CGs, and the weight of a scope adds drasticlly to the troque generated by the top barrel.


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: 4seventy]
      #6255 - 30/12/03 08:28 AM

Maybe we should invite cjishere2 over here to explain it to us!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Double Crossed!!! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #6256 - 30/12/03 08:55 AM

Some of these comments from the same site I thought were "debatable"!

Lighter and Better Balance.
No Mechanical action to learn.
No Mechanical action to jam.
No Mechanical action to clean.
Safe loading and unloading.

hmmm


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