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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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jagermeister
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Reged: 07/06/06
Posts: 14
Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump?
      #60424 - 27/07/06 08:46 AM

What are the disadvantages in terms of performance and durability of monoblock vs. chopper lump barrels?

I know chopper lump barrels command a premium, but I would like to know if there is anything that I give up in performance for the difference in price.

Also, do Heym, Merkel, Krieghoff, Chapuis or Searcy use chopper lump barrels?

Thanks!

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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: jagermeister]
      #60452 - 28/07/06 01:43 AM

www.searcyent.com will do chopper lump bbls for a large extra cost. Go to the web site and then to the options page, you can find the cost there. Typically I think none of those listed in your question use chopper lump. I have heard that CL BBls sit closer to one another at the breech end, so this makes for easier/better regulation. I do not think that there is a strength issue, but I am just a reader of info others have written, I am NO DR smith.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: jagermeister]
      #60467 - 28/07/06 07:38 AM

In reply to:

What are the disadvantages in terms of performance and durability of monoblock vs. chopper lump barrels?

I know chopper lump barrels command a premium, but I would like to know if there is anything that I give up in performance for the difference in price.


Thanks!



Jagermiester , The only advantage to the chopper lump over the mono-block is a double rifle can be made slightly narrower with the chopper lump! In terms of performance there is no difference!

The reason the chopper lump barrels cost more has nothing to do with whether they are better, but because it requires more work to make them, nothing more. There is a school of thought, that says the Mono-block is better, because of the fact that the lumps can be hardened better, because the whole block can be heat treated. With the chopper lump,(also called Dimi-blok, in the Germanic countries), the lumps must be surface hardened, so as to leave the barrels elastic. The mono-block is much like the reciever of a bolt rifle in that the barrels are threaded into the block, and the heat treating has absolutely no effect on the barrels at all.

In reply to:

Also, do Heym, Merkel, Krieghoff, Chapuis or Searcy use chopper lump barrels?




The Merkel, and the Heym have Dimi-blok (chopper lump) barrels! Searcy has both! I don't know about the Krieghoff, and the Chapuis, but I doubt they are chopper lump. I say this because Krieghoff was one of the first to go to mono-block in their shotguns!

You will find that most who are interested in double rifles will flatly state chopper lumps are the best, but that has to do with the fact they cost more, and they believe you get what you pay for! We both know that is a lie in many respects, and in this case they are simply paying for the extra work involved, nothing more.

Do I think chopper lumps are worth the extra money to get them? NO! Unless you intend selling later, MAYBE!

Do they make the rifle worth more when you sell? Yes!

Is my rifle stronger because I have Chopper lumps? NO!, In fact, there is some evidence to the contrary!

Will my rifle shoot better because I have chopper lumps? NO!

Like all things relating to double rifles, if you ask ten different people, who own double rifles, you will get ten different answers. If you ask ten gunsmiths who do not specialize in double rifles the same question, you will still get ten different answers! This is one firearm you pick your gun smith very carefully, for! You'd be surprized at the number of well known gunsmiths who do not understand double rifles!

In the final annalysis, if the double you are looking to buy is well made, and it fits you, and shoots to regulation, the price is right, buy it, and don't worry if it has chopper lumps, or mono-block!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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WildCattle
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Reged: 22/03/06
Posts: 95
Loc: Northern California
Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #60474 - 28/07/06 02:12 PM

Dugaboy,
With all due respect, I believe that the proper spelling is "demi-bloc" which means "half billet" in French. Meanwhile, "mono-bloc" means, well, you guessed it...
WC


--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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André
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Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Brussels (Belgium)
Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: WildCattle]
      #60487 - 28/07/06 06:06 PM

WC is correct, "demi-bloc" it is. Also "monobloc" is often referred to as "canons frettés" (sleeved bbls.).

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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Spring
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Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 104
Loc: Georgia
Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: jagermeister]
      #60504 - 29/07/06 03:37 AM

Rightly or wrongly, there are people that think that chopper lump barrels are better. I guess its possible I'm slightly prejudiced on this issue since I bought a gun with them, but here's a desription and discussion of chopper lump barrels from Hallowell & Co:

Chopper-lump bbls (also called Demi-bloc barrels) - A method of joining the two separate tubes of a set of barrels where the right-hand half of the pair of lumps under the barrels are forged integrally with the right barrel and the left-hand half of the pair of lumps under the barrels are forged integrally with the left barrel. Chopper-lump barrels can be recognized by the fine joint-line running longitudinally down the center of each lump. This method of jointing barrels is the best because: 1. It is the strongest in relation to its weight, and 2. Because it allows the two barrels to be mounted closest to each other at the breech end, reducing problems regulating the points of aim of the two separate barrels.

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
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Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: Spring]
      #60513 - 29/07/06 09:24 AM

Here is a link
Chopper Lump

Also a good bookmark is their reference pages for terms
Hollowell Firearms terms and abbreviations

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: WildCattle]
      #60594 - 31/07/06 08:20 AM

In reply to:

Dugaboy,
With all due respect, I believe that the proper spelling is "demi-bloc" which means "half billet" in French. Meanwhile, "mono-bloc" means, well, you guessed it...
WC



WC, absolutely, the word means HALF BILLET, which is the same as chopper lump. Half of the billet that forms the lumps is part of each barrel, and are brazed together, to form one whole billet that the lumps are cut from! Chopper lump is English, and Demi-bloc is the same thing, in this case in French, but the name is used mostly by the Germans!
What was the contorvercy, my spelling, or you think the Demi-bloc is not the same as chopper lump? If it was my spelling, anyone here can tell you that misspelling is common with my writeing, if it is that you think I'm wrong, and Demi-Bloc is not the same as chopper lump, then you are mistaken, because it IS the same!
http://hallowellco.com/lumps.htm

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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WildCattle
.275 member


Reged: 22/03/06
Posts: 95
Loc: Northern California
Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #60687 - 02/08/06 06:25 AM

Dugaboy,
I was just trying to say that if Demi-blok is the correct spelling in German, the expression comes straight from the French and/or Belgian "demi-bloc".For instance, I do not believe that "Demi" means anything in German. And yes, it is the same as chopper-lump.
I guess I should use more around my text as the post was not supposed to be hostile in any way.
Maybe I should have used "original" instead of "proper".

By the way, I was wondering when the first chopper lump barrel was built and by whom. I know that there are a few Damascus chopper lumps around...
WC

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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Preacher
.224 member


Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: jagermeister]
      #60712 - 02/08/06 08:23 PM

Jagermeister, I use both systems.
On accuracy terms:
I have 2 demi-block doubles in 9,3x74R, and 4 mono-block in 9,3x74R, 8x57JRS, 7x65R and 45-70. One of the demi-blocks shoots just acceptabily and it is a 1970´s factory made rifle, the other one shoots amazingly and it is a hand made one. 3 of the mono-blocks are capable to make one sole hole at 80 meters (1 of them is a factory made and the other two are hand made), and the other one just shoots (this is hand made too).
The conclussion is that it depends on how good or bad the hands were.

On strenghtness or durability terms:
I just can´t tell. None of them gave me a single problem. Strenghtness has always been the best selling value of the demi-blocks, but I think that I will not be living enough time or shooting enough bullets to have an opinion. Maybe on the big bores this point may have a real sense.
The oldest existing firearm maker, which is Beretta, is the real defender of the mono-blocks even for its double rifles, but I have seen some big bores (470 and up) of that Firm carrying demi-blocks. This maight be a clue.

My opinion is that one thing is the theory (that´s good for engineers) and another thing is the practice (that´s good for hunters). Is more or less the same that happen with the ultra-accuracy concept; anything around the 7 is very good for a hunter and anything out of the 10 is unacceptable for the sniper-shooter.

Rgds
The Preacher


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Spring
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Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 104
Loc: Georgia
Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: Preacher]
      #60721 - 03/08/06 12:07 AM

In reply to:

The oldest existing firearm maker, which is Beretta, is the real defender of the mono-blocks even for its double rifles, but I have seen some big bores (470 and up) of that Firm carrying demi-blocks. This might be a clue.



Beretta uses the demi-block barrels on their high-end SxS double rifles. Of course the core design and manufacture of those guns is done for Beretta by Abbiatico and Salvinelli, possibly better known as FAMARS.

When you say Berreta is using the mono-block design for rifles as well, is that on their O/U doubles?

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Preacher
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Reged: 17/07/06
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Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: Spring]
      #60728 - 03/08/06 03:39 AM

In reply to:

When you say Berreta is using the mono-block design for rifles as well, is that on their O/U doubles?



Yes, Beretta uses this system in almost all of their DBB guns.

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unspellable
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Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: Preacher]
      #60729 - 03/08/06 07:06 AM

Strength and regulating issues aside I've always felt the mono-block did not look as nice as chopper or dovetail lumps. There is the seam between the mono-block and the barrels, and things are bit broader in the beam.

I would think the mono-block being wider in the beam would make regulating a bit harder, but here the quality of the work probably makes a much bigger difference than choice of lumps.

In my own collection, including shotguns, I have all three types.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Monoblock vs. Chopper Lump? [Re: WildCattle]
      #60776 - 04/08/06 01:31 AM

In reply to:

Dugaboy,
I was just trying to say that if Demi-blok is the correct spelling in German, the expression comes straight from the French and/or Belgian "demi-bloc".For instance, I do not believe that "Demi" means anything in German. And yes, it is the same as chopper-lump.
I guess I should use more around my text as the post was not supposed to be hostile in any way.
Maybe I should have used "original" instead of "proper".




WC , what you wrote didn't bother me, I just didn't understand what the point was you were trying to make, that's all!

The "DEMI-BLOC" name for chopper lump is used by the Italian makers as well. In fact most of eastern Europe uses Demi-bloc! Like a lot of words used by Americans, that are not American at all or, in fact, even English, are really French words! like "camouflage" for instance!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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