Forums.NitroExpress.com

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact NitroExpress.com: Double rifle experts - advice

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies

*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

You are not logged in. [Login]

Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

Pages: 1

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Double rifle experts - advice
#5903 - 20/12/03 01:15 AM

Right, finally have some time to get the .450 No. 2 shooting.

Load is:
.450 No.2 NE
Bullet: 480 gr Woodleigh RNSP
Case: Bertram
Primer: 215M Federal
Powder:AR2213 SC

Load was 105 grains of powder with a black foam filler. All the filler burned up nicely leaving no residue.

Previously shot the rifle using 100 grains - four shots for familiarisation and test for any pressure problems.

Temperature was 30 deg C with humidity and GALE force winds. I picked the shots in the gaps in the gusts.

Rifle was rested on a Landcruiser bonnet with my hand and arm on the rest holding the rifle off the surface.

25 yards.
Fired a left and right. 1 1/4 inch group horizontally side by side, but almost 5 inches above the point of aim. Vertically in line with point of aim.

50 yards. Fired four shots. 2 left and 2 right. 3 shots into 1 inch asanice cluster with the second right barrel increasing the group to 3 1/4 inches. This of course may have been my mistake or the very strong winds having some effect. 3 shot cluster is 7 1/2 inches above the point of aim. 1 1/4 inches to the left (wind was right to left).

Cronograph showed plus and minus around 2100 fps. Pressure looked OK but primers were being damaged on opening the rifle by protruding firing pins.

Only made up the 6 rounds of this load.

Didn't try to shoot out to 100 yards as the wind was very strong and picking the gaps would have been harder as the distance increased.

Plan on increasing the load to 107 grains and see if it drops the point of impact, but do you think there is evidence the rear sight needs to be lifted?

Will try to post some photos tommorrow.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: NitroX]
#5914 - 20/12/03 05:54 AM

NitroX

Firstly, BEFORE you start ANY modification to the sights / metal work, you MUST get a load that shoots well
in the rifle at 100 yards.

Secondly, BEFORE you start ANY modification to the sights, you MUST have tried EVERY combination of
powder primers before you modify any metalwork. An example - on a couple of my doubles, (by coincidence,
one of which is a 450 x 3 1/4" Nitro so a very similar cartridge), changing the PRIMER from Fed 215 to CCI
made a great deal of difference to the POI (in fact it lowered it to the POA.

3. IF you are going to change ANYTHING to do with sights, first Change the FRONT SIGHT. This is partly as
it alot easier to get a higher or lower front sight (I have some UK made Blank / in the White Foresights if you need them)
and secondly, the formula used to calculate what height front sight you need only works with the front sight, not the
rear sight.

(Don't ask me to explain the formula on this forum, it's a bit long winded but it works as I've changed 4
front sights on my doubles and they all came out perfect.)

"but primers were being damaged on opening the rifle by protruding firing pins"
Theirs nothing wrong with the firing pins - the reason for this is that Fed 215 primers are quite soft
and ALOT softer than the primers used with Kynoch ammo in the past
Since I know the firing pins on this gun were checked for correct "roundness"
try using some CCI primers which are harder and tends to "drag" less after firing.

Finally, can you measure with a calipre the height of the front sight and email call me.
I'll do a quick calculation.

Email or call me over the weekend.

Hope this helps

500 Nitro

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: NitroX]
#5919 - 20/12/03 08:51 AM

I am no expert, but I do agree with the experts, like 500nitro, exaust every option before changing anything made of steel! First off, I would wait till I could get a better day for shooting. Then start with fouled barrels, but cool barrels. Fire a four shot group with the right barrel, when the rifle is cool again, then fire a four shot group with the left barrel, at two different targets. The barrel that fires the worse inndividual group, is going to be about the best composite group you can expect, with both barrels, with that load. Then fire the cool rifle rt, lft, rt, lft, for four shot composite groups. This is the order the regulators at the maker's fire for the regulation when being built, and some times makes a lot of difference. You did not say if the barrels are shooting wide, or crossing. If they are shooting wide, and high, which is what I suspect, they need speeding up a little to get less barrel time! This is likely to bring the barrels into a tighter group, and lower. The change in primer may just do the trick, but I think you need a little more powder!

Then sometimes a double will simply not follow the rules. Who knows why?

I also agree with 500, about the CCI primers, I use nothing else, and have had zero problem with them. A couple times I've had to use other primers, and my load with only the primer change, did not regulate!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (21/12/03 03:18 PM)

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: DUGABOY1]
#5920 - 20/12/03 09:31 AM

NitroX

As Dugaboy said and something I forgot to say but should have.

"You did not say if the barrels are shooting wide, or crossing.
THIS BIT IS VERY IMPORTANT "If they are shooting crossed, and high, which is what I suspect,
they need speeding up a little to get less barrel time! THIS IS LIKELY TO BRING THE BARRELS INTO A
TIGHTER GROUP, AND LOWER ............"

I also agree with Dugaboy that I think you need a little more powder at least as the first thing to change
- BARREL TIME IS VITALLY IMPORTANT IN DOUBLE RIFLES

Finally, When shooting, Shoot one shot from one barrel and look where it goes BUT
WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR SHOOTING POSITION BEFORE you fire the other barrel.
This will let you know if they are crossing.

Also Do as Dugaboy says - shoot 4 shot groups, rt, lft, rt, lft, for four shot composite groups.
You do get a much better idea of what the gun is doing with 4 shot groups.

Chronygraphing - make sure you write down each barrel velocity - just in case down the track
when trying to problem solve you will know that both barrels shoot approx the same velocity
(less than 100fps difference).

Finally, don't dispair - it takes a while and paitence. Of the 20 - 25+ double rifles I've worked up
loads in over the last 5 years, only 1 of then didn't shoot and that was because of a loose rib !!!
Therefore percentages are on your side !!!

Good luck and email or call me if you need.

500 Nitro

DUGABOY1 - with suggestions like you wrote, I think you are up with the experts.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: NitroX]
#5923 - 20/12/03 10:26 AM

Nitro X,
Ah, finally!

Ok, first you need to remove any variables or hinderances which could affect the result at the target.
This means, among other things, don't do your testing in gale force winds!
Wait for a better day.

Now here are a few things to try.
1....Make certain that you are sighting the rifle with the forsight bead right down in the rearsight vee.
I mean you need to "lock into" these guns when you shoot and a small error in positioning the bead can make a large difference at the target.
Also some doubles are sighted so that a six o'clock hold of the bead on a round bullseye will impact in the bullseye center.

2....If your rifle is shooting "apart" with the right barrel hitting the target to the right of point of aim and the left barrel shooting to the left, this usually means the velocity is too slow.
Also too slow velocity can make the rifle shoot high.
Try increasing the load 1 grain at a time and see if things improve.
I think 2100 fps is too slow for that cartridge in 24 inch barrels.
Another 50 fps might make a big difference regarding bringing the two barrel groups together and also lowering the point of impact.
As others said, don't change the sights yet.

3....Primers. Question......Is the rifle hard to open as a result of the striker dragback on the primer cups, or does it open easily and is just leaving a mark on them?
My point here is that so long as the dragback is not making the gun hard to open, do not worry about it at this stage.
This problem may improve as you increase the velocity and pressure of the load.

The reason that boxer primers can have dragback problems is that they are smaller in diameter than the berdan type and this results in a stiffer cup which is less ready to yeild to the striker as the gun is opened.

"Lifting" the rear sight will actually RAISE the point of impact and make things worse.

I think you need to GRADUALLY increase the load towards 2150 fps and shoot the rifle at 100 yards on a good day.

Also as Mac has advised, it is much better to use a seperate target for each barrel and this helps to easily determine which hole came from which barrel.

Best of luck.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: 4seventy]
#5928 - 20/12/03 12:03 PM

Don't worry at the speed I work at, I wouldn't touch the sights for at least a year or two!

When I post the photo of the bullets impact you will see if they are crossing or not.

But here is it in writing as I might not get to the photos this weekend.

At 25 yards the LEFT barrel impact was to the right and RIGHT to the left. A bit over one inch apart. This appears to be an anomaly.

At 50 yards the two LEFT barrel impacts were to the left and the RIGHT impacts to the right.

As said my next intention was to increase the charge to 107 grains and see what happens. Try 109 grains after that. Also to shoot the rifle out to 100 yards.

As I have a private range (paddock) I'm just making up load by load and trying one at a time.

500nitro - as we know someone else has shot a first charge out to 130 grains and without any filler, got a hang-fire, and survived with eyes and fingers intact , I think I am safe for a few more grains!

There is also a slower AR powder I wanted to try irrespective of the results of AR2213SC as it is supposed to require no foam filler.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: NitroX]
#5930 - 20/12/03 12:18 PM

4seventy

Some good points. I forgot to mention them but thought they might be relevant especially for the bullet height impact.

When using open sights I use a circle target and hold at the bottom centre of the target. The measurements are from this point on the target.

I used the top of the V line of the rear sights for the top of the front sight. I did realise this might be causing the POI to be too high if the front sight is designed to be held as low as the V allows.

A question with these older doubles - Is the front sight normally meant to be positioned at the bottom of the rear sight V, or at the top line of the V? Or does it change from rifle to rifle and maker to maker?

I am not in the least worried at the moment. Firstly I decided to put my experiences on the forum so they are recorded and can be used by other 'newbies' to the world of doubles. Secondly the regulating load at these in terms of horizontal disbursement is not far off with this load already tried. Indeed it may just be the sighting arrangement I used as 4seventy has mentioned.

Going to make up another 4 rounds of 105 grains and shoot them out to 100 yards plus another 4 rounds of 107 grains and see how they go.

The rifle is not hard to open in the least re the primers. I will keep going with the Federal magnums unless I have some CCI's on hand (?) until I get hold of some. I assume you are refering to a CCI large rifle magnum primer?

Another question. If the main standing sight is set for 100 yards does this mean the rifle is meant to regulate at 100 yards when set up by the maker ?

500grains - I don't need the sight modification formula yet by a long way. Will telephone if the loads and different sighting arrangements don't work.

I am keeping track of individual chronograph readings.

Today would be a perfect day, completely calm and warm but I am being dragged off to do some Christmas shopping

.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: NitroX]
#5940 - 20/12/03 03:46 PM

Nitro X:

Glad you finally got your dies and components. Generally speaking, yes the bead is supposed to be nestled in the bottom of the V with all of the bead visible but none of the post. Presuming that your sights are reasonably close to zero, the sight picture that you describe will cause it to print high.

So, three into one inch plus one flier, right on right and left on left at 2100 fps. Hmmm. You don't want it to cross-fire at 50 yards. I like them to print right on right and left on left about 3/4" apart. Sounds like you might already be there and the high POI may be entirely due to the incorrect sight picture. Shoot the same load on a calm day and see what happens. Then try 106 and 107 grains. Work up a grain at a time and, as noted, look for the MOVEMENT of the individual barrel groups in relation to each other. If they begin to cross-fire a little with the heavier charges, drop back to 105.

I'll have to disagree (just a little) with .470. The .450 No. 2 standard was a 480 grain bullet over 80 grains Cordite for 2175 fps. However, IIRC that was in a 28" pressure barrel. In 24" barrels 2100 fps sounds about right to me.
-----------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#5945 - 20/12/03 06:07 PM

400 Nitro,
Yes I agree that the original velocities were taken from pressure barrels which were usually longer and showed a higher figure than what could be obtained in the shorter double rifle barrels.
But as I'm sure you know things don't always go to plan.
A good example of this is with mickeys load for the 470.
The original ICI load showed 2125 fps from a 31 inch barrel.
Mickeys rifle regulated at a higher velocity than this in a barrel which would most likely be at least 3 inches or more shorter.

Nitro X,
The bead MUST nestle in the bottom of the vee or the shots WILL go high.
As 400 said you should see the entire round front bead but not the blade.

I would not worry about those shots crossing at 25 yards.
Get them close at 50 then check them at 100 and alter the load to suit those distances.

If the standing rearsight has 100 engraved on it it means that the STANDING SIGHT IS REGULATED FOR 100 YARDS not the barrels.

As you said, you are quite close even with your first loads and this would suggest that there is a very good chance that everything will work out real nice.

So, sight with the bead resting in the bottom of the vee,
sneak the load up untill the individual barrel groups come together at 50 yards, then shoot it at 100 yards and see if they are apart or crossing and then adjust the load to suit.

You lucky bugger, I bet you are having heaps of fun with your almost new toy!

Scrubber or piggy's later on perhaps?

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: 4seventy]
#5960 - 21/12/03 05:12 AM

.470:

Yeah, I have one that does that too. Always makes me a little nervous though. I bought my double rifles back when they were merely expensive. Todays prices make me a cranky, conservative cuss when handloading for 'em.

-----------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

DBBill
.300 member

Reged: 25/05/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Southern California, USA

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: NitroX]
#5962 - 21/12/03 05:53 AM

Just resting your hand on the bonnet "may" be contributing to the rifle shooting high...to make it more natural (like shooting off-hand) try putting a fairly soft pillow or thick piece of foam under your forward hand as you hold the rifle. This will allow your hand to recoil more like it would if your were shooting off-hand.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

NE450No2
.375 member

Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: NitroX]
#6044 - 23/12/03 03:08 AM

The final test I preform for my double rifles is to get two animal targets, here in the USA they are usually deer, and set them up at the distances I intend to be able to shoot and hit something with the particular double/load in question. Then I start out kneeling and shoot the right bbl on the right target and the left bbl on the left tgt. I usually shoot 6 rounds. This lets me know how the rifle is going to perform in the field. I also test my folding leaves at 100 yards and consult ballistic trajectory charts to know if they are close.
My 450 No2 is regulated for 75grains of cordite/480gr bullet and shoots best with

81gr. of IMR 3031 350gr Hornady RN
81gr. of IMR 3031 [80gr with solids] 480 and 500gr bullets.
100gr of IMR 4831 with soft and solids.
88gr of RL-15 with 480 and 500gr soft and solids.
The 480's are Woodleighs, the 500gr are Hornady's and Swift A-Frame's. The only bullet my double does not seem to like is the New Hornady Encapuslated solid, but I have not experimented with it much, it might just need more or less powder.
RL-15 loads seem to have the lowest pressure.
The 350gr. Hornadys also shoot good with the two other powders, but I use 3031 for them because I have a lot on hand. All the above loads "regulate" well and hit with the sights at 100 yards [on paper] and at 200 yards on my "200 yard rock". My double seems to slightly favor 500grain bullets over 480gr. So far the 500gr Swift shots the best. Next time I buy Woodleighs I am going to try the 500grain soft and solids.
I always use filler. It does not seem to make any difference if I use polyester pillow stuffing or the two different types of foam I have. I prefer the foam as it is easier to load and does not make a mess on the ground.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

NE450No2
.375 member

Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: Double rifle experts - advice [Re: NE450No2]
#6861 - 13/01/04 12:56 AM

Nitro X
Have you had a chance to try any 350gr. RN bullets yet?
I use the Hornady's but you can probably get the Woodleigh's for less money. The 350's make a great pig bullet, probably good for roo's too.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Pages: 1

Extra information

0 registered and 24 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 2862

Jump to

NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact

Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved