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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: gryphon]
      #6109 - 24/12/03 03:11 PM

Here is another person that agrees with you? Sorry, I can't help myself.





Stacking the Hunt
by

WAYNE PACELLE


December 9, 2003


WASHINGTON - This fall, more than 10 million Americans went hunting. Some met with success, maybe even managing to bring home some ducks or geese or a deer. Of those who returned empty-handed, many did so with the knowledge that a fair hunt comes with no guarantees.

A growing number of people, however, are embracing a different set of rules - they're taking part in hunts that are largely rigged. In the United States, there are at least 4,000 "canned hunting" operations, where people may pay thousands of dollars to pursue trophy animals that have little chance to escape. Bird-shooting operations offer pheasants, quail, partridges and mallard ducks, sometimes dizzying the birds and planting them in front of hunters or tossing them from towers toward waiting shotguns.

At ranches catering to big-game enthusiasts, hunters can shoot exotic species native to five continents - everything from addax to zebra. "Tired of traveling, spending money and coming home with nothing to show for it?" reads an advertisement on the Web site for Old Stone Fence Hunting Adventures in Rensselaer Falls, N.Y. "Book your successful trophy hunt today! . . . No license required; no harvest - no charge." Though enterprises like this claim to offer "fair chase" hunts, the promise is hollow, since the animals are confined in fences and the money changes hands only if the hunter gets a trophy.

How does an Arabian oryx or a Russian boar find its way to a hunting ground in Pennsylvania or Texas? Many are obtained at exotic animal auctions. A sale at one auction last year included zebras, camels, ostriches, kangaroos and lion cubs - some destined for canned hunts, some for private collections. The three-day sale of 3,225 animals brought in more than $1.5 million.

Of course, no one would expect someone like me - a person who works for the Humane Society - to support canned hunting. But in this fight, animal advocates are not alone. A good many hunters also find the practice abhorrent. In its 2003 national hunting survey, Field & Stream magazine asked readers what they thought about hunting animals "in enclosures or fenced-in ranches." Sixty-five percent of those who responded opposed the practice; 12 percent endorsed it and 23 percent said they had no opinion. Game ranches have also been denounced by a number of outdoor sporting roups, including the Izaak Walton League of America, the Rocky Mountain Elk
Foundation and the Boone and Crockett Club, which oversees national hunting records.

The hunts go on, though, in part because they have the support of the National Rifle Association and Safari Club International, a pre-eminent trophy hunting organization.

In fact, it's the Safari Club's award program that helps to drive patronage of canned hunting operations. To win the club's Africa Big Five award, for example, you have to go to Africa to shoot the elephant, the rhinoceros and the leopard, but you can pick off the Cape buffalo and the lion
in the United States. There is even an award for Introduced Trophy Animals of North America, in which you can do all your hunting for 18 different species right here at home. In fact, you can shoot all of the species for an award category at just one place. It's one-stop shopping. No more expensive fortnights in the wilds of Africa - and no one to know whether the head mounted above the mantel came from Asia or Oklahoma.

But canned hunting is more than crass - it's cruel. Animals are sometimes drugged, shot in their cages or at a feeder, or killed slowly with spears. Despite this, only 13 states have passed laws to ban canned hunts involving mammals. This year, New York almost passed such a law, but it was
vetoed in August by Gov. George Pataki. New York lawmakers should try again. And so should legislators in other states and in Congress, which has the authority to ban the interstate transport of exotic mammals destined for canned hunts. Canned hunting belongs in the same category as other forms of animal abuse, like cockfighting and bullfighting. It's hard on animals and easy on people - and it should be against the law.


--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: mickey]
      #6110 - 24/12/03 03:25 PM

I dont agree about the bullfighting or cockfighting either but a lot of those words are true and you all know my views on that.....hey i can be a cruel bastard if i have too, you know shit like swinging a feral cat by its tail into a tree etc but the canned hunting is crook shit.
Thats a good post Micket 3 stars for ya mate.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: gryphon]
      #6111 - 24/12/03 03:35 PM

Mickey here is one back mate

http://amatola.hypermart.net/home-hunting.html

They are into sustainable hunting...read on and you will see what i mean.....just the sort of place that i want to go too,yeah my arse lol.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: gryphon]
      #6112 - 24/12/03 03:53 PM

These type operations are something that piss me off too.

Canned Hunting: Scourge Or Saviour of a Species?



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Bloemfontein

Lion breeder Marius Prinsloo believes he and his fellow predator breeders are doing important conservation work by boosting animal numbers through captive breeding.

"Ten years ago there were almost no lions left in the Free State. Today, thanks to us, there are more than 500, of which ten are white lions.


"Some of our lions are eventually hunted, yes, but only after they have become too old to breed with and have to die anyway. Look at the way livestock is slaughtered at an abattoir -- that is far more cruel than killing a lion in a camp of 1000 hectares with one shot."

Prinsloo is arguing the case for the defence of lion breeders accused by animal rights organisations of promoting the "cruelty" of so-called canned hunting.

Prinsloo and the journalists he is speaking to are following an official from the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) from cage to cage as he inspects a large number of captive-bred big cats soon to be put on auction.

The auction, condemned over the previous two weeks by animal welfare groups, including the national council of the SPCA, is to take place on the farm belonging to Prinsloo's fellow predator breeder Shorty Durand.

Durand and Prinsloo are two of the four sellers. Prices ranging from R10000 for cubs and R150000 for breeding males are expected.

The SPCA inspector, Rick Allan, still has a bloodied mouth from a brief skirmish with two lion breeders a few minutes earlier at the entrance gate to the caged animals.

Prinsloo says he "completely fails" to understand why "the greens", including the SPCA, are targeting them for criticism.

"Just look at our animals. They are superior thanks to breeding. You don't easily see such beautiful lions in the wild. Look at their condition and the set-up. It was not cheap to put up these excellent facilities. We do it because we love our animals. We are proud of them. We would never maltreat them.

"The SPCA should rather look at things such as the way cattle and sheep are transported. Why victimise us?

"We do important work. For some people it is the ultimate experience to pick up these (hand-raised) cubs and to bottle-feed them.

"We are extremely frustrated with the way in which animal rights organisations are continuously attacking us in the media. We do not have the time or means to properly respond and state our case," Prinsloo says.

He and other proponents of the hunting of captive-bred predators believe that for every captive-bred animal hunted, a free-ranging one is saved the bullet. Prinsloo and Durand also believe their lions are not "canned" when they are hunted, because they are not tranquilised and they are hunted in a large area.

Current provincial environmental regulations require them to be hunted in a camp not smaller than 1000 hectares and to be set free in the camp at least six months before the hunt.

Allan says this makes no real difference: The hunted lions would still be "canned" as they were hand-raised and fed by the breeders, and have thus lost their fear of humans.

"In my experience lions that are captive-bred approach when they see a bakkie with humans appear, as they are used to getting their food from them."

According to the NSPCA's definition a lion is "canned" (a practice the organisation opposes) when it has no fair chance to escape the hunter's bullet. All captive-bred predators are thus, in the NSPCA's view, necessarily "canned" hunting prey.

The same argument does not apply to non-predator species that are captive bred, such as springbok, as they do not tend to develop the same bond with humans. This was mainly because captive-bred predators are at a far greater measure dependent on their human caretakers for food, Allan says.

Head of the Kalahari Raptor Centre, Chris Mercer, who says he represents the greater majority of animal welfare organisations (excluding the NSPCA) in South Africa, says a lion is canned when it cannot escape a hunter due to constraints, whether this was a physical fence or the mental barrier of habituation to humans.

Mercer, who intially tried to stop the Hoopstad auction by applying for an urgent interdict in the Bloemfontein High Court, says nature conservation authorities are "dismissing us as bunny huggers" because their officials do not have sufficient experience of animal behaviour.

"We base our definition of canned hunting on our experience of animal behaviour. A lion cannot become wild again in six months (the period before the hunt required for the lions to be freed in the hunting camp)."

Mercer says he will be filing court papers against environmental authorities in a bid to ban the captive breeding of predators and the hunting of captive-bred animals in South Africa. He dreams of the day when "we shall effectively kill the captive-breeding industry" by getting government to prohibit the export of trophies unless it can be proven that the hunted animals were wild.

Mercer, who reportedly received large foreign donations to finance this planned legal action, says the canned hunting industry would then be replaced by "canned tourism" as eco-tourism reserves such as his own near Kuruman in the Kalahari would buy up all captive-bred predators auctioned off.

For Free State nature conservationist Pierre de Villiers there is a less drastic solution.

He wants to ban the raising by hand of young cubs, so that they are raised by their mothers in the camps. This would make them less habituated to humans.

De Villiers fears that wild predator populations may be endangered in a world where all captive breeding is banned, especially of the hunting of wild animals should is allowed.

"Of course I do not like seeing these animals in cages and camps. But the reality is that the whole of South Africa is already a camp system, because millions need to be fed from the land. There is simply not enough space in South Africa for all animals to be free-ranging, as the case would be in an idyllic world. Thus we need to manage our existing system as best we can."

The hunting of captive-bred predators is permitted in three South African provinces, including the Free State, North West and Limpopo. It is a lucrative industry, with prices paid to the breeders ranging from around US10000 to US12000 for lionesses, and around US15000 (R136707) to US18000 (R164046) for males. Hunters pay around R150000 (R1,3-m) to R200000 (R1,8-m) to hunt.

Deputy director: trade and regulation of the national Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, Doctor Pieter Botha, says prescribing guidelines is very difficult, as there is such a large difference of opinion regarding the definition of "canned hunting".

Botha says new guidelines from the national department are to be published early next year for public comment, with the aim of developing new regulations from them. These include that all animals should be hunted in a humane way, without being lured with sound, food or any other method, and without being tranquilised.

The new guidelines do not prescribe aspects such as the size of the hunting camp, as this would differ from habitat to habitat and from province to province. Provincial authorities will have to determine their own regulations on these, Botha says.


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Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: gryphon]
      #6113 - 24/12/03 04:35 PM

Gryphon

I'm not sure I see your point on this. I didn't see the size of the farm but it appears large. If the animals are born on the property nad not bought at the auction and stocked..... They definitly have a short season so they are not over shooting the place.

My problem is not with fences but with small areas and Trophy hunters who will do anything and pay anything to get the biggest for their wall.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: mickey]
      #6129 - 25/12/03 08:43 AM

"My problem is not with fences but with small areas and Trophy hunters who will do anything and pay anything to get the biggest for their wall."

This is what i`m saying all along except to me those that do the above are not trophy "HUNTERS" but collectors as we know the diff between the hunting side of it all



--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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cr500
.300 member


Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: NitroX]
      #6298 - 31/12/03 11:11 AM

Sorry for dragging it back to the original question. I think the point you are trying to make is that maybe some of the blokes who have written books on the subject and have hunted everything and everywhere, have only done it because they have the money. Not all of course but I think there would be a few cases of "professional clients "living in lurury Hemingway champagne safaris, having the guide drive them up to within strolling distance of a good buff/elephant/nyala/sable etc ,letting them take a shot ,then quickly stepping in to finish the animal off.Then its pink gin and champagne and off for a cruise to anotherwell setup shot.
What makes me think this is a freind of mine,who is realy a very nice bloke and keen hunter. He has hunted all over Africa and some places in India,Malaysia and U.S (as well as home in OZ). Thing is ,he is a terrible shot, even more so of hand, he is unfit,has no bush sense,noisy, poor eyesight, just generaly not suited to hunting, though he has a fair few good trophies and lots of good yarns. I like to go hunting with him still, just to listen to his stories(most of which are basicly true) by the campfire.
As for guides, when I lived where I grew up and then when I moved to N.T, I didnt think anyone would pay big money to take them hunting. Now I dont know property owners in my area, and most properties are shy of hunters, I have had to go through guides now. I would love to be able to just go out by myself and family, camping and hunting, but nowadays, the only places we can do this ,have been hunted out. So if I want a good ,hunt ,I have to go through a guide.


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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: NitroX]
      #7445 - 26/01/04 04:30 AM

I have some professional clients and yes such a critter does exist...

He can walk 20 miles without a peep out of him, he shoots better than most PHs, understands hunting, guns, reloading, photography and many other things that combine to make him a rare breed, and most of all he never complains about a damn thing..He is a rare breed that plays by the rules, he enjoys his whole experience of Africa, and doesn't carry a tape or tally numbers book in his pocket..but he can, if he decides to, pass up medicore animals, even better than average animals waiting for the big one and if he goes home empty then he is Ok with that....Mostly he has 20 or more Safaris under his belt..

The hardest to hunt is the 2nd or 3rd timer, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing syndrome. Of course this does not apply to all 2nd and 3rd timers...

The best to hunt is the first timer as he is in his cups drinking in the whole experience, and that is always a thrill to the PH and to me...It is a great feeling to share that with someone...Your first hunt is your best and you are the ultimate professional on that one...


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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: gryphon]
      #7544 - 27/01/04 04:17 PM

I don't remember when I have read so much bull shit on one forum....

So shooting Lions at night is a cinch huh!, my ass, have you ever had a male Lion or Leopard in your lap and all you had was a flashlight or torch to go with your rifle, obviously not, well I have and its plumb exciting IMO...

I could go on but such crap as this turns me off.....

If you ain't been there you don't know!!, end of story.


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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: atkinson6]
      #7572 - 28/01/04 06:53 AM

If you ain't been there you don't know!!, end of story.

Man hasnt been to Mars yet but knows a hell of a lot about the place.


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Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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SafariHunt
.333 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 468
Loc: Pretoria RSA
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: NitroX]
      #7648 - 29/01/04 03:00 AM

NItro,

Lets look it from this point if you could quide yourself in Africa how succesfull wouldf you be let's say for instance you come hunt with me because I have to be with you as the PH we go to farm setup our own camp and there we go I just accompany you on the hunt and you do the rest yourself.

Sounds nice doesn't it but do you have 21 days to waste like it to find your 10 head of trophies ? I would love to get a client like that. Time and money that is what it all comes down to.

For me a professional client is someone that did his homework at the range and on the animals I shouldn't be telling him it is a Bushbuck he should know also the diffrence between female and male among the animals. The more the client knows the easier it is to point him to the right one.

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"


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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: The "Professional Client" [Re: SafariHunt]
      #7696 - 29/01/04 09:07 AM

Gryphon,
you may be right, once man invented the internet, he instantly knew it all!, but we ain't been on Mars yet and some have not tracked Leo or spots in the dark.....


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