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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Will the PH save your bacon ????
#58700 - 13/06/06 03:34 AM

".... it is not a wise assumption on the part of the hunter to assume that the PH is always going to save the day when a dangerous situation develops .... "

An extract from Bill Stewart's book, "Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game".

***

I am interested to hear what the Ladies and Gentlemen of NE.com think about this subject.

Do you agree or disagree?

What do our PH members think on the subject?

Has anyone here had an experience, which did or might have turned 'bad' where they were on their own, or where the PH might have not been available to save the day? PHs?

Also it is a good discussion to counter-balance the threads and goals of clients wanting to use a sub-standard calibres like the .45/70, 6.5x54 MS (

) , rifle, bow and arrow, black powder, etc on a dangerous game hunt. Will the PH be there to 'save the client's arse' in all situations?

Have fun.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Boomer
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 144
Loc: The Hudson Bay Coast, Canada

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: NitroX]
#58701 - 13/06/06 03:45 AM

I think the client must assume the responsibility for his own safety - it's his life, and to sit back and assume that the PH will pull his butt out of the fire is unrealistic. The PH is responsible for the safety of the client, but sometimes things go wrong.

--------------------

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SAHUNT
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Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: Boomer]
#58706 - 13/06/06 05:17 AM

It depends on what your bacon is worth

On a serious note, Yes it is the ph's responsibility to ensure the clients safety, but what do you do when a client acts against your advise. Everytime I get in hunters I spend the first evening with them going over" The Perfect Shot". I advocate that you only shoot shoulder shots, head and neck shots are very difficult if you do not know the anatomy of the animals. I had a client that went against my advice and shot neck shots, he lost two Impalas and eventually got a Bush buck. The moment he saw the animal went down he jumped up and ran to the animal, also against the advice I had given him. If that Bush buck was just stunned and he got up, the hunter would have had a nasty experience, Bush buck can be very dangerous.

When it comes to rifles a ph can also only offer advise, some hunters will just not listen. You got to treat the situation with care, make a compromise as an example that you will follow up after his shot for safety reasons, that is to say if you can. There is very few ph's or outfitters that can afford to lose a client because he disagree on the calibre the client want to use. If a client wants to hunt a buff with a 30-06 I will refuse to guide him, because only a senseless person will try to use a 30-06 on a Buff.

And just to put the record straight, it is not only foreign hunters that stuff up, many local hunters stuff up a lot more sometimes.

The reputation of a ph is also on the line, if you do not go out of your way to save your clients back skin, you might aswell close up your shop.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: SAHUNT]
#58713 - 13/06/06 10:22 AM

I know of three charges by Leopard and Lion that found the PH with a misfire. If it wasn't for the client being able to bail both of them out there would have been big trouble.

Not to mention the PH that can't hit the broad side of a barn. One 'guide' in Alaska that I had was afraid of Bears. He wanted shots at 100 plus yards and then was always behind me when we got closer. When I did shoot a Brown Bear he fired 3 times from behind my head with his 458 at 40 yards. He missed a dead bear all three times.

Best depend on yourself and act as if the PH is asleep in his cot.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3547
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: NitroX]
#58730 - 13/06/06 01:48 PM

What's a PH?

Never hunted with one (except a mate who guides, then on his day off!), so there's no question. Many of my friends have hunted buffalo alone too many times to count, self included, so you learn very quickly to rely on no-one.

I would be very uncomfortable if the decisions were being made by a PH who is wondering whether I'm fit enough, whether I can shoot, whether I'll get 'buck fever', how close I need to get, etc. IMHO, when I am the only one making decisions, trouble is far less likely to occur.

I realise I am in the minority here, not trying to make a point, just offering another perspective.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: Marrakai]
#58734 - 13/06/06 03:44 PM

Marrakai

But is your 'Fat Lady', your .577, gun enough?

I think the smallest calibre I have heard you using on buffalo is the 6.5x54 M-S (??), and that you due to experiences now prefer something much more adequate.

Can you share any light on those experiences?

Your comments might get to the point of the topic. The fact that you may have been hunting alone, perhaps with a light calibre, did that lead to your decision to preferably carry a double in a .400, .470 or .577 in the future? ie with no back up, you are it.

Thanks.

***

I accept the point of your post entirely. Unfortunately many of us in less pristine locations than the Top End must use a "introduction agency" like an outfitter to get access to hunting country. And in virtually all of Africa it is a legal requirement except for two or three countries that allow self guided permits / auctions etc.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
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Posts: 39680
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: mickey]
#58737 - 13/06/06 03:53 PM

Mickey, Jaco and Boomer,

I have a story from a friend where the PH refused to follow-up a wounded lion and the client did it alone.

That incident came to mind after I typed the question above.

And as a coincidence, it is the same gentleman whom proposed and did use his 6.5x54 MS on water buffalo in 2005, ie the thread I introduced on NE.com for comments and got a lot.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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SAHUNT
Sponsor

Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: NitroX]
#58741 - 13/06/06 04:35 PM

The experience of a hunter is also of vital importance. If a hunter knows what he is doing he does not need a lot of back up. I think the biggest and most likely problems is experienced when a person is a novice hunter. I think a novice hunter on a DG hunt can be a nightmare.

Sub standard calibres can and will kill DG, depending on the shot placement. A lot of questions comes up, the ethics involved, if the shot was not good, will the animal have more energy to attack you when shot with a small dia. bullet vs. a large dia. bullet. It is a fact that a large dia. bullet leaves a bigger wound channel that should bleed more and will tap the energy of the animal quicker. Lots of questions and lots of debate and more questions.

A ph not prepared to follow up? Why is he a ph?

BTW I also prefer to hunt on my own

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: SAHUNT]
#58748 - 13/06/06 08:08 PM

OK the story as told to me. I didn't have time to put it on the last post.

My friend and NE member "Orion" was hunting in Zimbabwe in 1988 or 89 (I think?). He was hunting in the Zambezi Valley for buffalo, lion and other assorted game. His rifles were a Blazer 7mm and .375 (two barrels) and I think his .270. He is a keen .270 user and used this rifle on most things and was eager to try it on buffalo and lion, plus elephant except the PH said he would shoot him if he did (partly in jest as he was aiming up on a bull elephant).

Various plains game animals fell to his rifles and a buffalo to his .375. The outfitter had asked him to bring all solids, believe it or not.

On the last day Orion was in camp and had loaned his .270 to a fellow Aussie hunter who was hunting with a different PH. The other fellow had ONLY brought solids per outfitters stupid advice and had been having a lot of trouble with numerous follow-ups on wounded game.

As it turned out a lion was seen on the opposite bank of the river and they quickly un-packed his .375 Blazer. A fairly long shot ensued and a wounded lion ran off into some very thick bush. The black PH then refused to enter the bush with Orion to finish off the lion, and went to sit in the landcruiser with the driver instead. So Orion went off and after firing numerous shots at anyting moving, or yellow while creeping through the bush, finished off his lion.

This story probably does not illustrate the issue of having enough gun to keep ONESELF out of trouble and not relying on others or the PH. As Orion wished heartily for his .270 rather than the .375! But the .270 was the rifle he was most familiar with.

While was this man a PH? I believe he had the right local political connections. Certainly from the stories, both a sorry example of a PH and a sorry excuse for an outfitter.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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SAHUNT
Sponsor

Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: NitroX]
#58753 - 13/06/06 09:27 PM

You do not need a DG rifle for a Lion. It is not a thick skinned animal. You can kill it with a 270, again shot placement is critical. How can a ph advise a client only to bring solids. Your first shot should never be a solid especially on DG- period.

I agree, what a sorry excuse for a ph.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3547
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: NitroX]
#58764 - 13/06/06 10:32 PM

NitroX:
To answer your query on my calibre choices for buff:

When I first moved to the Northern territory from North Queensland a couple of decades ago, I had Vic Pedersen build me a .416 Taylor on a 98 Mauser, with which I took my first buffalo hunting alone on foot. An interest in nitro-express doubles, which I had secretly entertained for some time, now had an outlet and I started acquiring examples as finances allowed. My first double was a 20/.577 Express which accounted for a number of good bulls. Almost all of the buffalo I have taken since those early days have fallen to double rifles, most to my .400 Jeffery.

I also like to hunt pigs and donks with my 6.5 Mannlicher Schoenauer carbine, and had it in my hands for two buffalo encounters, the first of which concluded favourably. The second resulted in a long tracking job, which concluded unsuccessfully when the animal rejoined a mob and his tracks could no longer be identified. I believe he survived. Dunno what happened, there was plenty of long grass, a deflection perhaps? Who knows. No room for error with that cartridge. I would quite happily hunt buffalo again with the 6.5, a little more cautiously perhaps, but can't see the point when there are better choices in my gunsafe.

I certainly wouldn't recommend the 6.5 MS to others for buffalo under any circumstances.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: Boomer]
#58769 - 13/06/06 11:01 PM

In reply to:

I think the client must assume the responsibility for his own safety - it's his life, and to sit back and assume that the PH will pull his butt out of the fire is unrealistic. The PH is responsible for the safety of the client, but sometimes things go wrong.

I think Boomer has nailed it with that.

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analog_peninsula
.224 member

Reged: 27/05/06
Posts: 10
Loc: Dallas, Tx

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: NitroX]
#58773 - 14/06/06 02:54 AM

Well, never having hunted Africa my opinion probably isn't worth much, but I will observe that my life is sufficiently precious to me that I'm uncomfortable entrusting it wholly in the hands of another. Especially when it isn't necessary.

analog_peninsula

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: analog_peninsula]
#58910 - 16/06/06 04:12 PM

I prefer to be in a position to save my own bacon. And when hunting in Africa there are unarmed trackers walking around. On occasion the PH may not be in a position to save their bacon and it can fall to the client. Hopefully he will be up to the task.

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EricD
.416 member

Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: NitroX]
#59164 - 23/06/06 03:30 AM

I have no illusions of anyone but myself saving my bacon when the stinky stuff hits the fan. Both when hunting and otherwise. Too many things can get in the way for the PH to always be in the right position to save the clients bacon IMO, so it's best to be able to handle all potential situations oneself.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: EricD]
#59262 - 25/06/06 10:39 AM

Gentlemen, this is the same as the person who is looking down the barrel of his own pistol,but waiting for the police to get to them to keep the robber from killing them. Doesn't make much sence does it?

It makes no more sence to think the PH is going to save your butt, when you shoot a bite-back with a pop gun, and only make him mad, than it does to wait for the cops, rather than shooting back.

Your safety, as a client hunter, is the PH's responcibility, within reason! By that I mean the PH is only a man, not God, and he can only do what he can do. He, in fact, may be the first one hit by a Buffalo, or lion, and if that happens any hunter worth his salt, will at least attempt to shoot the animal off the PH. I have never had a PH that I would not trust with my life, but I'm damn sure going to be watching out for this old boy myself, and will damn sure not abandon the PH if he's in trouble.

Any PH who refused to go into the weeds with me to sort out a wounded lion, will soon find himself on report, as soon as I get back to town!

Like Marakai,I might use a sub size rifle to shoot Buffalo, if hunting by myself, but also like him, I wouldn't reccomend it to anyone else. However, when a PH reccomends all solids for all rifles, when a mixed bag is on the minue, should put up a flag in the mind of even the NOVICE!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Grizzly
.333 member

Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Will the PH save your bacon ???? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#59467 - 30/06/06 08:04 AM

You are the only person on this Earth responsible for your life. Think about it.

Backup is great, but your life is your responsibility in the end.

A PH won't shed a tear for your kids or widow.

So you had better damn well be able to shoot straight into a locomotive coming right at you.

And if you can't do that, don't go.

Just my opinion.

Jim

--------------------
SCI Life Member
DSC Life Member
DRSS Member

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