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jagermeister
.224 member

Reged: 07/06/06
Posts: 14

William Douglass 470NE Opinions?
#58529 - 09/06/06 12:59 AM

This rifle seems to have been for sale for awhile on Guns America

"William Douglass 470 NE | "Deluxe" model with coin-finish, 24" bbls, 15.5" LOP, Purdey-style 3rd bite, in maker's case. Excellent condition with only minor handling marks."

I can't find much about the maker. It appears to have been built in the past 20 years or so.

The price is a considerable premium to the Merkels and Chapuis and on the high-end of the Searcys.

Any comments or opinions on the maker or the gun?

Thanks!

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: William Douglass 470NE Opinions? [Re: jagermeister]
#58531 - 09/06/06 01:45 AM

Someone here will surely know more than I do, but as I understand it this is a recent production gun. They only made 20 or 30 or 50 of them, found that it was not feasible financially, and then closed down. It would fit into the same general category as Chapuis, Heym, Searcy, Merkel and Krieghoff.

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas

Re: William Douglass 470NE Opinions? [Re: jagermeister]
#58536 - 09/06/06 03:09 AM

jagermeister -

Wm. Douglass is not really an historical English maker's name, so there isn't much to tell about the history (in the sense of “old” English makers.)

In short, the Wm. Douglass is about the only affordable "English" double of modern make. The barreled actions were made in Holland and imported into the UK in-the-white. There they were regulated, stocked, proofed and finished. (FWIW - Some wouldn’t consider that an “English” gun, but they would probably also be surprised to know where a lot of the parts of today’s English guns come from.)

This process was coordinated and the guns were imported by Donald Shrum (now deceased) of Cape Outfitters. When Don passed away, so too did the Wm. Douglass.

There's a lot of gun in a Wm. Douglass for the money (considering it would cost about 25-30K to have a copy made/finished in the UK). To start with they are well balanced and handle well. They have modern metallurgy and are fit and finished well. I'm not a fan of the semi-beavertail fore end, personally, but that’s an easy problem to solve.

The one in particular you’re referring to is one that I have consigned for a customer that wanted to buy a sidelock HEYM.

So, that's the short story on Wm. Douglass. Some others may have more details. Feel free to contact me with any additional questions.

Here are some photos.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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clark7781
.375 member

Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA

Re: William Douglass 470NE Opinions? [Re: new_guy]
#58542 - 09/06/06 04:06 AM

new_guy:

This might be a thread hijack, but looking at the Douglass, can you explain the shape of the forend? It looks like on the side, the forends goes up and around the barrels, similar to the Chapuis. And, I think I saw a California/Merkel Rigby's forend shaped the same way - I think it was in Boddington's "Buffalo!" book.

I personally don't care for that look.

Does it serve a purpose? I would think that it would give the hand more surface area of wood so as to decrease the amount of heat the hand is exposed to during firing.

Or is it just a cosmetic decision?

Thanks,

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas

Re: William Douglass 470NE Opinions? [Re: clark7781]
#58544 - 09/06/06 05:13 AM

clark -you nailed the “theoretical” concept behind the beavertail forarm.

1- Provide a better "grip."
2- Protect the hands from the heat of the barrel.

In reality, the forend (of any type) the Brits would say is there to house the ejectors and keep the barrels from coming off when you open the gun… they’re not for holding on to while shooting the gun.

I'm not sure when in the US it became popular, but it must date back to the Parkers, LC Smiths, 21s, etc... as these are the first doubles I can think of with big beavertails.

Now, those are shotguns, so how did they end up on double rifles? I s-u-s-p-e-c-t they became popular in the late 60's early 70's as that's the era I’ve seen them on, lots of single trigger doulbes of that era too - but there are better historians here than myself who can shed more light on the timing of the beavertail’s popularity.

Now, as to the concept (points 1 & 2 above). Neither is justification for a beavertail on a game gun or double rifle IMO.

In both cases the gun should be held by the barrels, not the forend. In a double rifle of significant recoil, if you hang on to the forend long enough, it is apt to separate the soldered hook from the bottom rib.

So if you hold the gun by the barrels, where it's supposed to be held, (ahead of the forend) then you're not touching the forend (be it beavertail or splinter) and points 1 & 2 really become moot - boiling down the beavertail vs. splinter to aesthetics and personal preference.

Again, a good gun with a beavertail forend is easily made into a good gun with a splinter forend… or left alone… depending on what the buyer wants. It’s kind of like a long LOP on a gun. It’s easy to remove wood if that’s what the owner wants – putting it back on is the tough part.

So why do many modern doubles have beavertails? I suspect their popularity is either for aesthetics or perpetuation of points 1 & 2 above.

As to the heat from the barrels? I recommend a glove.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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jagermeister
.224 member

Reged: 07/06/06
Posts: 14

Re: William Douglass 470NE Opinions? [Re: jagermeister]
#58546 - 09/06/06 05:32 AM

Thanks New_guy,

The seller may have already answered one of my other questions.

The Heym sidelock is one of the other guns I'm considering. Since he's looking to make the trade, I would assume the Heym handles comparably or better than the Wm. Douglass.

I like the look of the mid-grade British boxlocks -- there's an Army-Navy and a Manton for sale in the same price range as the Wm. Douglass -- but reading some of the travails of other members of this forum dealing with 100-year-old steel makes me lean toward a more recently built gun.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: William Douglass 470NE Opinions? [Re: new_guy]
#58547 - 09/06/06 05:45 AM

Pretty good explanation of the fore-end issue. It's also why the fore-ends of double rifles should be short. Those on most of the new guns are way too long. I actually like the Douglas better than most of the new guns. There were 99 built, all .470.

Jager:

Pre-war British is all I've ever owned. Mine are my primary hunting rifles and they get used. I've never had a problem of any kind. Get the gun checked out by a pro before you buy, and buy from a reputable dealer, and you won't have any problems.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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new_guy
Sponsor

Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas

Re: William Douglass 470NE Opinions? [Re: jagermeister]
#58548 - 09/06/06 05:57 AM

jagermeister- They obviously look different, with the Douglass being more English in styling, but I'd say the Heym and Wm. Douglass are physically comparable and that their handling characteristics are comparable as well.

For the price, you’re getting a lot of quality in both guns and wouldn't be disappointed in either one.

Sidelock vs. boxlock? Well, that's a question as old as the two designs. Fortunately - or I guess unfortunately - the cost of the two is usually the deciding factor for me!

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: William Douglass 470NE Opinions? [Re: new_guy]
#58549 - 09/06/06 06:24 AM

I have the same WD and have had it for about 4 years.
It is a great gun and shoot exceptionally well - as do
all of the ones I know of.
I also own a few English DR's and 3 x European DR's (2 Merkel's)
and so can do a direct comparisoon. The WD is both lighter and
better balanced than the other European DR's and in some cases
some of my English guns.

In regards to the beaver tail, being an Anglophile I am not a great fan
of them, HOWEVER, once I owned and shot the WD I realised how much
more comfortable it is to hold. (I wouldn't get one on an English Gun/DR
but I do like it on the WD !)

I don't think you can go wrong with them - they are well built and shoot well.

Hope this helps you in your decision.

500 Nitro

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