mike
.224 member
Reged: 17/12/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Alaska
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I have been dreaming of Africa for years and it seems like it could become a reality in the next couple of years. I am trying to get a good handle on costs, etc so I can present the whole kit and kaboodle to the minister of finance.
NONE writes "It seams the basics such as customary tips, trophy fees, day rates etc... are common knowlage but the travel expense, CITES fees, licence fees for hunters and rifles, government levies, dipping/packing and if this is event need for trophies not wished to return etc etc..."
I would like to know what a customary tip would be, given good service, camp, guiding, etc. Do you hand out separate tips to the PH, Trackers, Skinners, et al? Or do you hand a wad of cash to the PH and he doles it out according to some time honored formula?
Any gudelines would be appreciated.
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shakari
.400 member
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
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It all depends where you hunt, if you're hunting somewhere like RSA then you have a fairly small group of staff looking after you and the average tip would be around ZAR30-60 per member of camp staff and at least twice that for your tracker/skinner.
If you're hunting in a true wilderness area such as Tanzania then you will end up with a much larger group of staff. Maybe 15-20 guys, (most of these countries work in US$). Depending on what these workers do the average would be $20-30 per camp worker and around double per hunting staff such as driver, trackers etc. Tip in a true wilderness area can sometimes add up to over $800.....a lot of money.
Usually the client tips the staff directly, but it's a good idea to ask your PH as in some places how you tip is more important than how much you tip.
A good book to read about planning a hunt would be "The Safari Experience" by Craig Boddington.
I sent James a copy of our safari cost breakdowns and will be happy to send the same thing to you if you can let me have an e-mail address.
Have a good Christmas 
--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com
Edited by shakari (17/12/03 04:33 PM)
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NONE
.300 member
Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
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Mike,
I am by no means a wealth of knowledge on the ins and outs of Safari so others may feel the need to correct my understanding.
As Shakari sated the amounts already my added take on it from a clients point of view would be that this of course would be a base structure simply for a guide, as stated larger staffs would require larger budgets smaller staffs smaller ones and the length of the hunt would be something to consider as well at time to settle the end of hunt details.
Also I belive you should plan this as a base to start from and anything special to you about the hunt and or service should be considered above and beyond this base line figure. I know for myself I would be happy to tip well above this mark as that would reflect an excellent hunt I had received.
I suggest you have Shakari send you his package prices as well as expense summery I know I found it very helpful and a tool I could not find elsewhere.
James F Nixon III
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mike
.224 member
Reged: 17/12/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Alaska
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Shakari,
I would be grateful for any additional help, info, rate schedules, etc. I will check on Boddington's book. I have both his "Rifles" books and find them informative and good reading as well.
My e-mail is 3browns@mtaonline.net
James,
Thanks for your input. Looks like I have a lot to learn.
Mike
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shakari
.400 member
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
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Hi Mike,
I've just sent the cost breakdown to you. If you would like to know more about safari prices please take a look at my website (address below) as if I e-mail it all to you it will take you forever to download and also I don't want you to think I'm giving you a "hard sell"
Hope it helps, and please don't hesitate to come back to me if you need to.
Have a good Christmas
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Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com
Edited by shakari (19/12/03 06:57 AM)
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mike
.224 member
Reged: 17/12/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Alaska
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Shakari,
E-mail received and reply on the way. Thanks for the personal attention.
Hope you and yours have a pleasant and safe holiday as well.
Mike
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40645
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Mike
I have heard of PHs being tipped double rifles being left for them for DG hunts and blokes that tip 10% to the PH, 10% to staff and a lot more.
But in my opinion tips are always extras. I know there are standards that a lot of people work on for tipping and if you feel the safari was really good and everyone worked hard I would stick to these standards as a maximum. Yes the millionaires can throw their money around and then brag and the staff will love it but big deal.
A lot of Americans believe 10% of the daily rates is the "standard" for the total gift.
Personally my intention is to take physical gifts next time especially for the PH and cheaper stuff for the staff - T-shirts, hats etc with the NitroExpress.com logo on them  . (Probably cost me more than it I 'tipped' them in cash too  ). I would tip some cash to the staff, hell they get paid next to nothing sometimes. Also PH's who are salaried don't really make much and appreciate it.
Owner outfitters can and do make good profits. I can't holiday in Europe or USA every year so a simple gift is what I would do here.
I don't think the remuneration of staff should ever be dependent on the tip. Ever.
My tipping attitude is heavily influenced by custom in Australia where tipping basically is not done. The Aussie unions removed that inequitable remuneration arrangement way back in the 1920's and 1930's so most Aussies really dislike the practice. And I have never heard fof Australian's getting lesser service or hunts as a result, perhaps the opposite as they generally are keen and get into it.
As to how to distribute it, my strong preference is to give it directly to the people and thank them with a handshake in person as well as the gift. I have had a bad experience where the one given the "tip" pocketed the lot. Not a hunting safari but game viewing. So we scrounged out an equivalent lot and distributed it among the other 5 staff who were up to then very sad looking but cheered up. The headman was a greedy fucker.
But I have given it to the camp manager to distribute and to the staff directly. If giving it directly causes problem, that's the outfitters problem for encouraging tips. A gift is a gift so I decide how I give it out!
Generally I give the trackers and chef twice what I would give to cleaners, laundry men etc. The cook or chef too and if the skinner is really good, here too. If there is a lot of staff (whom you may never see - milk boys, gardeners etc) one lump sum for the "rest" often is the best and the outfitter can give it out.
Don't give skinners good knives as they sharpen them on stones and concrete. A simple ordinary one would do.
I probably don't make friends with outfitters with this sort of views but no one is going to turn down a booking because of it and it isn't being stingey.
Hell last year I even sent a cash gift several months after for the staff of a place in Zimbabwe where the hunt was interrupted becasue of warvets throwing us off. I was originally worried they would starve with no incomes! But as far as I know they are back on and working again.
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John aka NitroX
 ...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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shakari
.400 member
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
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John's about right (as usual) in what he says. There's really 3 tiers in the tipping system. The lowest being the tent attendants and laundry staff etc, then comes the waiter and chef etc and highest comes the hunting staff which should include the skinners who work hardest of all yet sometimes go unappreciated.
As to PHs, well that varies enormously. I've never been given a rifle, double or otherwise, but I live in hope! 
How you tip is often more important than how much you tip. In Tanzania for example the client (and party?) should sit with the PH and call each member forward one at a time and spend a few moments telling each member of staff how important their role was in making the safari such a success and a pleasure. If you just give them the money and call the next one forward (for example) they feel unappreciated. Hunting staff especially value the bond that builds up between them and the client(s) and those few words of thanks go a long way to let them know their efforts were appreciated. After all we're all part of a team out in the bush, and we all have to work as a team to get maximum performance for the client.
I personally find that this approach ensures that whenever I return to a hunting camp my return is greeted with genuine warmth rather than being greeted as just another punter.
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Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com
Edited by shakari (19/12/03 03:58 PM)
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shakari
.400 member
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
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If there's anyone else out there that would like a copy of this please feel free to send me an e-mail and I'll be pleased to send it by return.
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Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com
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mike
.224 member
Reged: 17/12/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Alaska
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NitroX
Thanks for the advice. I had often wondered if the old custom of giving knives, etc. still held or if they simply want cold hard cash. I like the idea of giving each person a tip, a handshake, and a word of thanks. Sometimes an "ATTABOY" goes farther than money.
I have also heard the stories of greedy operators smiling, taking a pocketful of money for distribution to the staff, and then keeping it. I think the one at a time handout would solve this problem.
The idea of handing a double rifle, or any firearm, to a guide kind of freaks me out. Even if the hunt went that well, I dont think I would ever hand a rifle over to a resident of a foreign country. Gotta wonder how many laws you would be breaking. Plus I have worked too damn hard to get what I have, and sure cant start giving stuff away.
Anyway, thanks to all for the words of advice. I hope in a year or two I have the opportunity to put it to use.
Mike
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40645
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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I do like giving out a gift individually, at least to the staff you come in contact with. Don't forget the hidden staff though as they often work hard for you too eg the skinners.
As for 'tips' I know of one outfitter who gives out a standard 'tip' to his staff for each hunt irrespective of what the client gives. So he makes up any deficiency himself, or I guess pockets the excess (??). Or was the 'tip' really called wages in the USA or Australia??
The double rifle "tip" I will explain a little.
The client was a manufacturer of double rifles from Italy. Each year he would visit the same outfitter and hunt a single trophy bull elephant with the outfitter. He would then 'tip' the outfitter with the double rifle he brought out with them and the owner who had at least one himself, started to hand them out to his PH staff in order of seniority. The PH I talked to, Rolf, was the youngest and least senior and the next year was going to be his turn to get the 'tip'. Unfortunately they lost their Zambian concession that year and the outfitter needed to lay off a PH or two and he being the 'junior' got the chop!
To say the least he was quite disappointed to miss out of a $10G double rifle 'tip' as a result.
BUT I think the PR of having this very famous outfitter using exclusively this brand of double rifles may have paid for itself by other wealthy clients seeing the rifles and purchasing them themselves overtime. 
Shakari - a client to have, don't you think!
In the wine industry here at home you give away wine to sell it. A standard formula. Maybe in the double rifle field it is the same and giving them away helps sell them (now that is a big hint. HINT, Holland & Holland, Westley Richards or even the yank made Rigby, perhaps a Merkel !) Fat chance of that!  (only joking of course  )
PS From my reckoning and emails to me this site has resulted in three doubles being purchased so far!
Mike
I hope when it comes to tipping, that you will be so happy, it is a pleasure, having enjoyed the first of many future fantastic safaris.
--------------------
John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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mike
.224 member
Reged: 17/12/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Alaska
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NitroX
I figured the rifle giveaway had to be something like that. Must be nice. Get to shoot a jumbo, and take a tax deduction for the trip and the rifle as advertising, at least that is how it would work out for a Yank.
Anyway, you have all given me a lot of good info and I think I can now sit down and have something fairly solid to factor into my safari budget.
Now, how am I going to pay for that new Double Rifle so I can do it in style.
Mike
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NONE
.300 member
Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
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Mike,
After reading some of the replies I belive "tipping" is as much a cultural thing as one could find.
In the US tipping is a way of life it seams in other countries this would not be the case. I know in NYC there are books associated exclusively to the arena of tipping and what is and is not appropriate as it is part of society, especially in this the Christmas season were one would be considered quite rude not to tip a regular door man, laundry service etc...
Some seam to be under the impression tipping here in the US and as it is done by Americans is a status symbol being made of millionaires throwing money around for bargain rights. It is rather then the latter a issue of proper edict here and in other countries practiced by all in every income range and social standing. Sorry to bring it back up but I for one take offense to it being looked upon as a practice by the social elite for mear bragging rights.
As for your search for the double rifle. I have been on the same quest and found that for a affordable price without sacrificing quality in the form of a new working rifle a few seam to stand out, in the opinions of most more well versed on the subject then myself, above the rest.
I have settled on the Butch Search built double myself, pending a personal meeting to confirm the feel and point of the rifle for myself. It is a custom built rifle to your measure and can be had with ejectors in your choice of most popular calibers from the 10-13K dollar range US depending on appointments. I also liked the Merkel but decide on the Searcy deluxe for myself as its custom fitted (Merkel pointed a bit short for me) has the ejectors, not that it was a must but a nice option for the same money and it came standard in the 470NE and I can latter fit a 375H&H barrel set to make the double a bit more user friendly for the larger US game I frequently find myself in search of as well.
http://www.searcyent.com/
James F. Nixon III
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mike
.224 member
Reged: 17/12/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Alaska
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James
Tipping has really gotten out of hand. It seems that EVERYONE has their hand out and expects something extra for just doing their job. I went through the drive thru window at A&W Rootbeer a while back and there on the counter by the window was a tip jar. I almost fainted. I am sure one of the reasons people eat fast food is to save money and not have to deal with a "Server" and the requisite tipping. I mean come on, they hand the freaking food out the window and they want a tip?
On to more serious notes. I too have looked at many "affordable" rifles and the Searcy looks good to me. I e-mailed them last week and got a reply from Butch with an estimated 6-8 months completion time for an order placed now. I have to get the safari paid for first and then see if there is time and money for the double. If not, my custom .416 Rem Mag will do just fine for M'bogo, and I will also take my .338 Win Mag for plains game.
If the double works into the equation, fine, if not, I feel I am well set up as it is.
Thanks for your input
Mike
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