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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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wbyman
.224 member


Reged: 22/04/06
Posts: 18
Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle
      #57935 - 29/05/06 10:16 AM

What is the strongest inexpensive side by side shotgun to convert to a rifle of 45-70 or larger ? How large of a caliber can you go with? Thanks

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: wbyman]
      #57936 - 29/05/06 10:27 AM

Depends on the cartridge you decide to use. There are as many variables here as well as the cartridge question you asked in your other thread.

Bill

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1408
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Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #57942 - 29/05/06 12:01 PM

I've seen a lot of Stevens 311 and 5100 shotguns converted to 45-70 or sleeved to a cape gun...45-70 rt barrel. They are strong, if not pretty.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: luv2safari]
      #57960 - 29/05/06 11:47 PM

There has been some doublerifles made on
Sauer &Son 20 gauge SXS shotgunactions overhere..
often in 8x57 IRS or 7x57R.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #57982 - 30/05/06 06:17 AM

By rigbymauser
In reply to:

There has been some doublerifles made on
Sauer &Son 20 gauge SXS shotgunactions overhere..
often in 8x57 IRS or 7x57R.



RigbyMauser is on the right track! If you must use a shotgun to build a double rifle, the the safest place to start is with a German S/S shotgun. The Germans have always built firearms stronger that was needed, in break top guns & rifles. This was because the multibarreld arms have always been their choice for hunting. This way the didn't have to build two different action, and could make a shotgun, or rifle on the same action. The American, and British tend to build a shotgun just strong enough to handle shotshells, and in fact British shotguns are built exceptionally light, and even high brass shot shells are hard on most of them. In Britton, shotguns, and double rifles are diffinately built on different actions.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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BwanaBob
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Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 178
Loc: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #57986 - 30/05/06 09:35 AM

"This way the didn't have to build two different action, and could make a shotgun, or rifle on the same action."

This is correct. When I asked Merkel about this topic, they stated that their actions are designed for double rifles and that their shotguns are built on the same actions.

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: wbyman]
      #57998 - 30/05/06 12:53 PM

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #58009 - 30/05/06 08:28 PM

Colorado,

Just a note. Simson and Merkel are not the same company. Simson was a smaller shop that seemed to use many pieces from Merkel. If you look at a lot of the german makers in the Suhl area it seems that there were only a couple of places that made actions and sold them to the trade for others to build on.

Bill

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #58014 - 30/05/06 11:44 PM

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #58020 - 31/05/06 01:52 AM

Merkel may have bought simson, not sure. However Simson seemed to by parts from Merkel or Sauer and finish them on there own. I think overall they are a little better finished then either Merkel or Sauer of the same period. I have a couple of each right now in the gunsafe.

Bill

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #58024 - 31/05/06 03:49 AM

you americans must understand that Suhl is a small town where everyone knows everyone or is a brother in law or similar. it was allways common to go in the next shop over the street if the srews are out and borrow them there

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: pwm]
      #58042 - 31/05/06 06:07 AM

I figured it had to be something like that. As I said I have a few in my gun safe and know from measurements that the actions on some of them are identicle. I have a couple of Sauers and Simsons that are one the bolstered frames like Merkel uses and have Merkels and Simsons on frames that are usually seen on Sauers.

Simsons seem to be a little better in fit and finish. What are the thoguths and feelings of these makers and guns from the German prospective? I'd like to here who's guns the germans feel are better quality than the others.

I have recently acquired a second Joseph Kuchenreuter. They aren't fancy guns but they seem almost flawless inside and out as far as workmanship.

Bill

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #58056 - 31/05/06 11:29 AM

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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
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Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: wbyman]
      #58076 - 01/06/06 12:34 AM


I have been using French actions for doubles, it seems that the French used to double and tripple proof their guns as a sales point and thus they are rather over built as far as strength goes. Cheep guns are just that, cheep. This usually means low strength and such guns as the 311 and 5100 should be left alone. Another point about these guns is that with the amount of work involved in building a double rifle why start with a club? To me it is like putting lip stick on a pig. It looks a bit nicer but is still a pig
Any action you use should have double underlugs and double bites, also a third fastener is nice along with side clips. Check the proof marks and you should be able to determine if the pressures of the chartridge fall within this range. In all cases you MUST reproof or have the gun reproofed! Your life and saftey depend on it! My addvice is stay away from "cheep" gun (low quality like the 311) However you can get some good buys on very good and strong guns if you shop around. Keep in mind that you are building the gun so finish does not matter to you. Worn blueing, dark stock and such drop the price as will pitted barrels.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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pwm
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: Judson]
      #58080 - 01/06/06 01:38 AM

I think Germans dont look for the name, they look for the gun they have in the hand, if it was well made or not.
Anyone can made a fine gun if you are willing to pay for this.
Of course nobody wait to find a bad gun from a well respected name.
Merkel is a special problem because Merkel became a synonyme for Bockwaffen, or over/under guns, like Colt for revolver. Anyone with sence for history thinking about o/u guns when the name Merkel come on the table.
I agree that every german action was build with the possiblity in mind that it was strong enough for a cape gun or a double.

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: pwm]
      #58095 - 01/06/06 08:03 AM

I have a Stoeger Uplander 410 bore that is destined to become a 22 Hornet or a 32-40. A dainty double!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: Rusty]
      #58098 - 01/06/06 08:40 AM

Rusty,

One of the guys that is in our little building group just finished building a 32-40 on a CZ 28 gauge. It is a dandy little rifle with 25 inch barrels. The whole gun weighs a little over 7 pounds. We built 3 monoblocks for the same gun. He is going to start work on 38-55 barrels next. I wouldn't have considered the 32-40 for a DR. Not sure why just wouldn't have. But shooting his makes me want one with stubby barrels to use on the rare occasion I hunt from a treestand.

I have a 22 hornet built on the 28 gauge CZ. It's nice but a bit heavy. I should have used the 410 frame but was originally concerned with wall thickness. I wouldn't think twice about using the 410 frame now.

Colorado,

The pins on the german guns I have do not have bushed pins. However all of them have small firing pins and small firing pin holes. In fact some are actually smaller than the firing pin/pin holes on my Mauser's. Thus no need to worry about that.

PWM,

Thanks for your opinion on the german guns.

Bill

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #58104 - 01/06/06 10:03 AM

That sounds great!
I would not have thought about the 32-40 except HogKiller on AR suggested it.

With the help of Jeffeosso I will cut the barrels off and replace them with 26" barrels. Either Pacnor or L-W

I would be interested in getting information from y'all on your projects.

rkmojo@aol.com

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: Rusty]
      #58109 - 01/06/06 10:34 AM

Rusty,

I talked with hogkiller on the phone for an hour or so when he was talking about using the parker to build a DR. Seemed like a good down to earth guy. Even if I don't agree with using the parker .

I've used Pac-Nors for the last couple of ones I built. However I get the basic barrels then turn the profiles myself. I think this along with building your own monoblocks is the most effective way to get the weight in the homebuilt DR the way it is supposed to be. You see when you cut off shotgun barrels then you are kind of limited to starting your replacement barrels profile so it matches up with the existing profile. If you build your own monoblock you can use the first 4-5 inches and keep them almost straight. This allows a lot more mass to be between the hands. The with the custom profiles of the barrels it allows you to get the right feel out at the end of the barrels by how thick or thin you let them. The nice thing with being able to turn your own is you can turn them then try them with the ribs and stuff tapes in place and see if you like the feel. If you need to shed more weight then you put them back on the lathe and take a little more off the profile till it feels right. Anyway I hadn't been taking pics of the process I use because I was simply working out the way I like doing it. However I'm done ordering all the barrels and reamers to start some builds. I'll be photographing them, so should have alot more to share in a few weeks.

Bill

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canada
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Reged: 09/05/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Northern Ontario Canada
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: wbyman]
      #58116 - 01/06/06 01:43 PM

Has anyone tried a BRNO ZG 47 double. It had good locks and is a side lock with bushed firing pins.

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Strongest, cheap sxs shotgun to convert to a rifle [Re: canada]
      #58136 - 01/06/06 05:19 PM

I have the facilities to turn barrels. I have facilities to shape metal.

Making your own monoblock is basicly sleeving a double rifle. I intend to buy the blanks and turn them to my needs.

I would be most appreciative of any shared information on your projects.

Thank you for your insight!


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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