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Hunting >> Hunting in Australia, NZ & the South Pacific

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NitroXAdministrator
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Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm?
      #57572 - 22/05/06 03:40 PM

One of the regular debates has been occurring on NitroExpress.com recently about "canned" NZ hunting (or not?) on the "Adventures in Oceania" - Boddington thread.

When is an outfitters' hunt on private high fenced land a "hunt", and when is it just another "canned" shoot on a deer farm?

A discussion question.


(a topic dear to Gryphon's heart )



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John aka NitroX

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gryphon
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: NitroX]
      #57618 - 23/05/06 05:20 AM

Nitro i just got this email in this morning from a sambar hunting mate that has had some time in NZ on the Tahr,now even though he says its tough hunting free range etc he keeps going back for more pain (fun).

I wonder how he would like the easy option of a pen,what do you think?

Anyway here is the first part of the email Nitro.

G'day ..J.G...
Got back from N.Z , hunted hard as always, had
been training prior and it still killed me, however l still enjoyed it, seen
close to a hundred thar, " no shit ace", big mobs, fifteen/twenty at a time,
some awesome bulls, some to far and to dangerous to get to, l bagged a
record class bull, just over 12in. my previous one was just under 11in, also
had a good bomb up. Was there for five days and had only one good day,
bloody cold and wet, bugger all timber for fire either, cant say l'm in a
hurry to go back, that was the sixth time in five years.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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gryphon
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: gryphon]
      #57645 - 23/05/06 10:39 AM

This highlights some of the danger in hunting up high ..

http://stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3677325a10,00.html in todays news

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mickey
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: gryphon]
      #57650 - 23/05/06 12:13 PM

Is this the story of the Yank who stepped out of a Helo and fellto his death?

Is using a Helicopter anymore ethical than shooting behind wire?

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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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gryphon
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: mickey]
      #57656 - 23/05/06 02:40 PM

obviously not as safe as behind the wire

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DoubleD
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: gryphon]
      #57659 - 23/05/06 03:38 PM

I have hunted behind the wire three times. Okay let me rephrase that, I have hunted behind the wire two times and and shoot a deer in a pasture once.

My South Africa hunt was on two Ranches one of 60,000 acres and the other 120,000 acres. In Texas I hunted a ranch 15,000 acres. That is a lot of square miles. The land was heavy brush and lots of hills and mountains. The hunts on those properties were every much as difficult as any I hunt I have been anywhere else. I do know that a lot of the game was introduced. But I went there knowing that up front.

Those areas are bigger than the wide open wheatfields and rolling prairie that I hunt Montana.

I also shot a fallow deer on a 950 acre game farm. It was not a hunt it was a killing. I would never go back. There was far to much game on the property and I am very much opposed to hunting such high wired small properties.

Having actually hunted in side the wire, I can not out hand totaly condem the practice. I do beleive there does need to be some some sort of guide lines. Not sure what they may be.

Limit the number of animals to so many per acre? Not allow the hunting of an animals that haven't ran free for more than a year onthe peorperty?

But to condem the paractice of hunting inside the wire will eliminate hunting altogether in a lot of places. Not only will that destroy economy it will serve the Anti's quite well.








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SAHUNT
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: NitroX]
      #57666 - 23/05/06 08:30 PM

A couple of factors must be taken in consideration.

The size of the land
If it is grassland you need a much bigger area. If the land is densely bushed you can hunt in a smaller area.

The minimum size for a densly bushed farm is at least 500 ha. For a grassland farm at least 1500 ha.

Animals on the farm.
Questions one must ask is:
Do the rancher buy in stock for every hunter that vists his farm. Put and take is a NO NO.
Are the animals that is hunted on the farm, born and raised on the farm. If yes you can hunt on that farm, the animals will know that farm inside out and you can prepare for hard hunting.

If a farmer buys in animals, when does he do it, the beginning of the hunting season or at the end of the hunting season. If it is at the end of the hunting season and the animals are left to learn the farm for at least 4-6 months it will be OK.

Hunting Methods
If you are hunting at water holes, artificial feeding places it is a NO NO. It is totally different if you are hunting next to a river, it is not an artificial drinking place.

Any area on a farm that is subdevided in small high fenced camps to contain a certain species is a NO NO

One of my clients wanted to hunt a Njala. I spoke to a farmer that had Njalas on his farm, on questioning him about the animals he told me there were 3 matured bulls in a camp of a 100 ha. I advised my client that it is a NO NO, it was shooting and not hunting.

Yes there are certain animals that you will not get unless you bait them, Leopard, Lion and even Bush pigs are difficult to get without bait. I am not all for it, but it is the clients choice.

One can also reason that driving around in the bush to find animals and then get off the vehicle to hunt them is a canned hunt.

A lot of the cotroversy depends on your own idea of what canned hunting is and what is ethical for yourself. In different areas in the world there are different ethics. The end of the day it is the hunter that must decide if it is ethical or canned.

--------------------
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Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: SAHUNT]
      #57715 - 24/05/06 03:13 PM

The sort of thing I am referring to is not just shooting in deer pens.

I have and will again "hunt" in high fenced properties providing I think it is reasonably fair-chase as to the size, terrain and wildness of the property and animals.

But:

* shooting in 100 acre paddocks;
* "put and take" ie releasing animals from the breeding pen, into a hunting area, a week or an hour before;
* hand feeding the stags so they are tame;
* shooting mountainous game such as chamois and tahr on flat country high fenced paddocks;
* shooting from choppers;
* scouting and sighting game from choppers and then dropping off "shooters" to "shoot" their "trophy".
etc

That is the sort of thing I am referring to.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: NitroX]
      #57716 - 24/05/06 03:14 PM

A couple of very relevant news articles pinched from ARs Aust/NZ forum:

In reply to:

Fog hampers attempts to retrieve tourist's body
23 May 2006

Fog this morning delayed alpine rescue efforts to retrieve the body of an American tourist who fell 300m to his death after stepping out of a helicopter and plummeting down a steep bluff in the Southern Alps.


Wanaka Detective Derek Shaw an initial check by staff this morning decided it was too foggy to send out a rescue team.

Checks would continue to be made every half hour to evaluate whether it was safe to proceed,

The middle-aged man was one of three hunters in a helicopter, which landed about 3pm on a ridge at Albert Burn, about 7km south of the head of Lake Wanaka, yesterday afternoon.

One person had already jumped out of the helicopter, when the American stepped down and somehow slipped and fell over the bluff.

The pilot immediately flew down to where the man had fallen but was unable to land.

However, those on board could clearly see the man was dead.

An alpine rescue team, including one police officer, flew to the area yesterday in an attempt to retrieve the body, but bad weather stopped them from landing.

Mr Shaw said the dead man's family had wanted to contact their family in the United States about the death and had asked for no further assistance from the police




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: NitroX]
      #57717 - 24/05/06 03:16 PM

and .....

In reply to:

Body of NZ chopper victim recovered

May 23, 2006 - 3:29PM

Police have retrieved the body of an American tourist who fell 300 metres to his death shortly after stepping out of a helicopter in the Southern Alps on Monday afternoon.

Clifford Wayne Senter, 57, of New Hampshire, was killed when he tripped and fell down a steep bluff while chamois hunting in the Albert Burn area near Lois Peak in the Mount Aspiring National Park.

Wanaka Search and Rescue coordinator, Sergeant Aaron Nicholson, said Senter had been in New Zealand for the past week on a hunting holiday, with his wife and two friends.

They had intended to leave New Zealand on Tuesday to continue their holiday in Australia.

Senter, his friend and a local Wanaka hunting guide had left Wanaka by helicopter about 2.30pm on Monday.

They spotted chamois in the head of the valley, and the helicopter pilot landed on a small flat outcrop.

However, when Senter stepped out of the machine, he slipped on the wet ground and started to slide down the slope with no chance of holding his fall.

Low cloud and fog prevented a search and rescue team from reaching him on Monday night.

A recovery team was deployed first thing on Tuesday and located Senter at the base of the bluff in the afternoon.

It was clear that the fall was not survivable as he had sustained very serious head and body injuries, Nicholson said.

A post mortem examination would be carried out at the Dunedin Mortuary.

© 2006 AAP




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: NitroX]
      #57723 - 24/05/06 07:57 PM

Sounds like a liability lawsuit to me!


Curl



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hoppdoc
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: SAHUNT]
      #57725 - 24/05/06 08:36 PM

Hunted private property for resident elk.

We drove up to the rim of a draw in a vehicle then descended over 3500 feet into deep woods stalking a herd.
Heard them but never got a shot at the herd bull.Hearing the bull bellowing at 15-20 yards was some of the most exciting hunting I can recall.

I consider that hunting!! I think I would also consider a disabled youngster shooting a doe out of a treehouse "hunting" for him but NOT hunting for me.It would be just shooting for me.

IMHO I generally agree with you but I think the diifficulty of the task must be considered for the individual involved.

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AdamTayler
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Re: Is it a hunt or is it a shoot in a deer farm? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57767 - 25/05/06 05:34 PM

In reply to:

Hearing the bull bellowing at 15-20 yards was some of the most exciting hunting I can recall.




Yes it is! Watching it on a hunting video is one thing, but experiencing it is another.

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It's the journey, not the destination.


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