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hoppdoc
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NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED??
      #57464 - 21/05/06 07:33 AM

450/400 Doubles wanted!!
I have been watching and reading the various threads and posts for months and it seems the present Double rifle major manufacturors are apparently missing the boat as far as what the market desires from those most qualified to specify desired calibers regarding newly manufactured Double rifles.

Cpt Curls thread was most revealing.Other prior comments on 450/400 class Doubles are flattering as well.The 450/400 is desired but unavailable in new rifles.

Is it a concensus that the Double manufacturors concern over.408 and .411 bore screwups is the reason why this fine Double is not being produced??

**If so and this need persists then why not can a manufacturor come out with a longer hull in the 450 brass or alternately chamber it for a .416 bullet instead of 408/411!!

Any further thoughts on modifying the cartridge vs leaving it or just pressuring the manufacturors to get off the pot and DO IT??

I would think such a Double would be a hot item indeed.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (21/05/06 07:45 AM)

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DUGABOY1
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57466 - 21/05/06 08:18 AM

I agree the makers are missing a great opportunity, by not chambering their double rifles for the 450/400NE 3", with at least 24" barrels, and perferably 26" barrels. The problem of the .408, and .411 bullet dia, is avoided by simply makeing them all in .411. The older rifles are, as always, an "order what you need" proposition to shoot them anyway. However, if someone accidently got a .408 in a 411 barrel no harm is done, other than a wasted bullet. Both diameters are reddily available, but the .411 is more available today, with the come back of the .405 Winchester, which uses a .411 bullet, componants will be easy!

If I could have only one double rifle, it would be a 450/400NE 3" , with QD scope mounts, in about a 9 lb rifle! Merkel should have chambered this round in the SAFARI rifles instead of the 416 Rigby, and 375 H&H belted, along with the 470NE, and the 500NE!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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bulldog563
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57485 - 21/05/06 06:04 PM

"If so and this need persists then why not can a manufacturor come out with a longer hull in the 450 brass or alternately chamber it for a .416 bullet instead of 408/411!! "

You mean like the 500/416?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
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hoppdoc
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: bulldog563]
      #57495 - 21/05/06 10:10 PM

Nope!!

How about a 450/416 ??

I certainly am no Doubles expert but if the existing platform is a concern then a new rifle manufacturor could redo the package with a shorter fatter 450/416 round or a longer 450/416 round to prevent lawyer shopping because of an ammo screwup. If not then just go with the current 450/400 &411 bullets and a well thought out rifle.

If the current round is satisfactory then maybe a Double made like 400 NE referred to on a previous thread with a 470 reciever and appropriate barrels to give fine "between the hands" balance and lighter weight( vs a "heavy Double")should be manufactured.

Sounds like a Double a lot of folks would like to buy new, including me!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (21/05/06 10:17 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57503 - 22/05/06 01:25 AM

Well one member is trying to organise a run of .450/.400 3" doubles in Heym (new_guy) so I guess a possbility may exist for a limited time.

As for them in .416, one question would be how many doubles are currently being sold in .416 Rigby and .500/.416. The only advantage a .450/.400 3" in .416 calibre would give is lesser recoil and velocity than the .500/.416 and perhaps lesser rifle weight.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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hoppdoc
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: NitroX]
      #57514 - 22/05/06 05:15 AM

Agreed--

If Heym has the stones and is not lawyer shy and makes a run of 450/400 --great!! This round does a 400 gr bullet at 2150 with ~4100ft/pnds of energy.Great combo and a lighter gun vs the 5000+ft/pounds of energy of some of the 450+ class of "heavy" Doubles.

A 450/416 would do the same ballistics in a similar package as a 450/400. Superfluous and redundant?? Of course, but thus it could be made lawyer proof. No manufacturor wishes to risk the farm due to an ammo screw up.

In 450/400 or 45/416 or whatever format reproduced-sounds like a 400gr bullet at 2150 with 4100 ftpounds of energy would be a coveted Double to own.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57521 - 22/05/06 06:30 AM

In reply to:

A 450/416 would do the same ballistics in a similar package as a 450/400. Superfluous and redundant?? Of course, but thus it could be made lawyer proof. No manufacturor wishes to risk the farm due to an ammo screw up.




hoppdoc, one could make any wildcat that came to mind, but then it wouldn't be a 450/400NE 3" ! This cartridge has a following, and that is the only way these things would sell well. If one looks at the 500/416NE K it is easy to se, not many folks have bought them compared to old origenal chamberings. This doesn't mean the 500/416NE is a bad cartridge, it isn't, but that the people who buy, and hunt with double rifles are a nostalgic group, that tends to avoid unusual chamberings in double rifles.

The 450/400NE 3", and the 450/400 3 1/4" have always had a thing with the .408, and .411 diameters, and it is a common practice to slug any barrel on either of these two chamberings before loading. By makeing all new ones .411, there would be no liability matter to worry about. There no danger involved in fireing a .408 bullet in a .411 bore, but the reverse can cause a problem, hence no legal worry for the maker if he uses a .411 bore barrel.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #57538 - 22/05/06 10:38 AM

Mac,

What they are worried about is putting out a quantity of .411 ammo in the chambering. Then some dipshit shoots the .411 ammo in his old .408 bore (which he didn't slug) and blows his ass off. Then the lawyer shopping. . .

It's not the rifle, but the ammo. Think about why the U.S. ammo makers only loaded the 8x57 to puny ballistics. They wanted to make a load that could safely extrude a .323 bullet into a .318 bore - possibly an '88 Commission Rifle.

Now you understand. Can't revive a classic chamber if the ammo won't fly in today's liability market. Sad but true.

Best to you, and I hope your medical condition is ok.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #57541 - 22/05/06 11:43 AM

With Curl's logic all new 450/400's should be made with .408" bores. All that new ammo would shoot well in the new rifles and safely, if poorly, in the .411" rifles. The fellow with the .411" rifle needs to roll his own, but he'll have plenty of fresh brass to do it.

HopDoc,

Since the 450/400 3 1/4" uses the full lenth 450 3 1/4" case, but the shoulder is so far back, a new cartridge with a more forward shoulder would work. As an additional benefit, moving the shoulder forward would create more space in the case, enabling better ballistics with the same pressures. How much better, I don't know. But it would end up somewhere between the 450/400 3 1/4" and the 500/416, probably closer to the 450/400. I think its a great idea, and even better if it were to use the .423" bore of the 404J or .435" bore of the 425WR, but the market is a small one and as Capt Curl points out, pretty set on the century old but eminently successful cartridges.

JPK

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hoppdoc
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #57543 - 22/05/06 12:01 PM

Dugaboy & Curl--

After a bit of research I will plead Mea Culpa and confess to being a total dunderhead.There is no need for any other redundant Double to substitue for the present 450/400 rifles unless factory ammo is manufactored and the 408 guys start blowing themselves up.The 450/400 is great as is.

As Dugaboy has so kindly,plainly and patiently stated, the 450/400 is clearly presently only a HANDLOADED CARTRIDGE and thus the responsibility of the handloader,NOT the riflemaker.Every Double manufacturors could change over today and make only 450/400's from now on with NO LIABLITY.The real rub arises in that no major gun manufacturor would do this without having a source of factory ammo for the "new" rifle and then the 411 blowing 408 rifles scenario rears its ugly head.

The Double rifle faction is probably small enough and motivated enough that the 450/400 could survive and prosper without factory ammo.

Ask folks if they would buy a 450/400 even if they had to handload and I bet they would say YES!! I would!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (22/05/06 12:05 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57556 - 22/05/06 01:50 PM

In reply to:

Ask folks if they would buy a 450/400 even if they had to handload and I bet they would say YES!! I would!!



Well I couldn't afford factory loaded ammo anyway, and if not having factory ammo available helps depress the value of the vintage rifles available, then I'm, all for it!

The moving the shoulder forward bit with a .416" bullet does seem to have some merit to solve the litigious ammo and rifle issues.

But I wouldn't mind a .450/.400 3" as is or a .500/.416 either.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Rell
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: NitroX]
      #57742 - 25/05/06 06:59 AM

I don't think the 450/400 3" is going to be a handload proposition for much longer. I just read in ... can't quite remeber but maybe rifle or rifle shooter that federal was going to start loading it. As well as a few other classic express cartridges.

Like I said I can't quite remeber where I read it but I remeber the quote pretty well.



--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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banzaibird
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: Rell]
      #57743 - 25/05/06 07:26 AM

Rell,

If you could find that quote I'd appreciate where you read it at. there was some rumor of Hornady loading the 450/400 but nothing has been released from them on the topic.

Bill

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: banzaibird]
      #57756 - 25/05/06 01:51 PM

Didn't Ruger chamber a no. 1 in a .450/.400 chambering of some sort for a limited run???

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DUGABOY1
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #57762 - 25/05/06 02:52 PM

Capt, I understood the problem from the start! what I was refereing to is the makeing of NEW RIFLES, in .411 barrels, would relieve the maker of the rifle from liability because there is no danger in shooting a .408 bullet in a .411 barrel. The fact is we've had this problem as long as the 450/400 NE 3" became available. The problem exists with bullet dia no matter if they build a new rifle chambered for 450/400NE 3" with a .411 barrel or not.

This particular pair of cartridges is not the only one with this problem. The Britts had a bad habit of not only calling the cartridge the same name, but useing different size bullets, and different weights, and with the NITRO versions made with no physical chamge in the case dimentions so the cartridge couldn't be chambered in a black powder express rifle.

None of this is any reason not to make a new rifle chambered for these cartridges, as long as it is made with pleanty of room, and stringth for the largest most powerful cartridge he may shoot in the rifle. Simply, in this case make a 450/400NE 3" with a .411 barrel and don't worry about it. Any one with any knowledge of these two cartridges knows the 450/400 3 1/4" will not chamber in a chamber cut for a 450/400NE 3" cartridgeor vice-versa. The only problem is there are examples of rifles with .408, and .411 barrels in both chamberings. However, I was not refering to the makeing of ammo, but of makeing the rifles, and there is no problem with a rifle with a .411 barrel . I understand the misunderstanding, that is my fault. You see I equate all double rifles to handloading, and I'm not interested in factory ammo, as to get the best from any double rifle it is a handloading propostion. Even if they made ammo in 450/400, I wouldn't buy it! I do see your point for bullet maker,who sells his bullets to an ammo maker.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Maineguide
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Re: NEW 450/400 class DOUBLE NEEDED?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #57929 - 29/05/06 05:27 AM

As far as I know B. Searcy is chambering his new model classic in the 450/400,, with 26" barrels.

Maineguide

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