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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Wildcat for DR project?
#57306 - 18/05/06 03:46 AM

Ok, hopefully I got everyone’s attention with the subject. I'm looking for some input on an idea I've been having for a cartridge for a DR project I'm about to begin. Now I'm interested in all feedback whether you think it is a good idea or the dumbest idea you ever heard. However I ask that either way you give an explanation of why you feel that way.

I sold the 9.3x74R DR I had built. So I was planning on building another. However I started thinking that something with greater bullet availability and greater range in size could be fun. However I don't honestly need anything bigger than the 9.3x74R because I pretty much am limited to North America hunting for the next decade or so. Thus I need to either go to 358 (basically the 400/350) or 375 calibers for more bullet availability. I also wanted to keep this wildcat on brass that is readily available. I also wanted to keep pressures below 40,000 p.s.i. Probably even lower if possible. So my thoughts are as follows. Make a 375 wildcat based off of the 9.3x74R case. I chose 375 because using bullets of equal weight with the larger bore should reduce pressure. It will also give me a reference to use when loading. Then I basically looked at the case and decided to use the larger shouldered style of the case, basically just necked up to 375 but more shoulder than the 9.3 case. In other words it reduces some of the body taper but isn’t close to “minimum” body taper. After some playing at the reloading bench I come up with a case that is approx 12% more case capacity than the standard 9.3 case. Now I figure I can push a 300 grain bullet at about 2100 FPS and still keep pressure well less than 40,000 p.s.i. However the main idea would be to run about 260-270 grain bullets at about 2,400 FPS. However if I was so inclined I could drop down to 200 grain bullets for a reduced load.

Anyway that’s my thoughts. Obviously it isn’t very much different than the 9.3 case. However gives the advantage of using readily available 375 bullets.

Bill

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: banzaibird]
#57309 - 18/05/06 04:39 AM

Sounds like real DR fun!

I will express my profound ignorance and risk asking a stupid question.What is the case capacity of your modified 9.3 brass vs the existing flanged(not belted) 375? (I have read about but never seen a flanged 375) What would be the comparable velocities with the 300 gr bullet from similar barrel lengths?

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (18/05/06 05:24 AM)

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: hoppdoc]
#57310 - 18/05/06 05:22 AM

The modified case holds 93-94 grains of water. Now my reference material lists the 375 Flanged Magnum at 97+ grains of water and the 369 Purdey at 102+ grains of water.

I'd expect performance with the pressure limitations to be about 200 FPS slower than the 375 Mag or 369 Purdey.

Bill

P.S.- I also don't know what to call it if i make it. 400/375 is already a rimless round. Perhaps 375 Flanged #2?

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hoppdoc
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: banzaibird]
#57311 - 18/05/06 05:34 AM

If the pressures are similar in the 375 flanged and your wildcat the comparable velocities won't be that far off.

Barseness, a magazine rifle "looney" has suggested that velocity is increased only by one fourth of the volume increase. The volume increase of the flanged vs your wildcat is only ~6% thus a 1.7% increase in velocity expected with the 375 flanged vs your wildcat.

If you like your DR and have the brass--go for it!!

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: banzaibird]
#57312 - 18/05/06 05:55 AM

I see negatives with not much to show for gain.

I've been shooting 9.3 bore doubles long enough to remember when 9.3 bullet selection in the US sucked. Those days are long gone. We now have everything from the 250 grain Ballistic Tips to the 320 grain Woodleighs. The only advantage the .375 diameter has is the ability to buy bullets off the rack at the local sporting goods store, rather than having to order them from Midway, Huntingtons, etc., and I ususally order bullets on line anyway. Just about any variety of 9.3 bullet you could possibly have a need for is available now. The 286 grain 9.3 bullet has the same SD as a 300 grain .375 bullet.

Any 9.3X74R based wildcat will always be much harder to sell than a standard 9.3 and more of a pain to load for. Brass for the .375 Flanged Magnum has always been a pain in the ass and always will be. Brass for the 9.3X74R is easy. It makes more sense to stick with the standard 9.3.

By the way, your proposed name for your new wildcat has been in use for 107 years. .375 No. 2 Flanged is the correct name for the 320 grain loading of the .375 2 1/2" Flanged Nitro Express. The 270 and 300 grain loadings of that cartridge are known by the latter name.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#57313 - 18/05/06 06:06 AM

Just a side note. I was told that Nosler dropped the 250 grain BT and was thinking of doing the same with the rest of the 9.3 line which is only 1 bullet now.

I also didn't know they called the other loading for the 375 flanged the #2. I have a couple of old Eley catalogs and they just list it as 375 flanged and then of course the flanged magnum.

Thanks for the info.

Bill

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CptCurl
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: banzaibird]
#57314 - 18/05/06 06:18 AM

Bill,

I'm going to have to agree with 400NE on this one.

The 9.3x74R is not a problem in the US any more, and it is on the increase. Ruger is now chambering that caliber, so I fully expect an American ammo maker to start producing it. The Speer 270 grain bullets are bonded and dirt cheap. Aside from that bullet, you have a rich selection from other suppliers. Not a problem.

The 9.3 is an excellent round. I suspect you would gain nothing by your modification.

Wildcats turn most people off. If you decide to sell, you will suffer.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: banzaibird]
#57315 - 18/05/06 06:24 AM

Further suggestion on your wildcatting--

The 375 seems close to the 9.3 in ballistics and function.
Ever consider necking the diameter down to 338?

The bullet availability would be massive, and futher reach with tough lighter weight bullets 210 gr-225 gr at higher velocities would be possible. They would be harder to regulate but could possibly extend your range for plains game hunting.

Is there a flanged hull out there for the 338 bullet?

There is the 333 Jeffery and the 318 WR. but they are unusual bullet diameters. I do not know their water capacity.

Hmm! A 338 DR. Sounds like great fun

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: hoppdoc]
#57316 - 18/05/06 06:54 AM

The .338X74R wildcat (9.3X74R case necked down to .338) has been around for a long time. Elmer Keith played with it extensively in a No. 1 back in the '70s. I don't recall ever seeing one in a two-row though. The .338 is an American caliber, meaning that bullet selection in the heavier weights is relatively poor. Since the USA is the home of the tragic mental illness known as Velocity Freakdom, the 275 and 300 grain weights don't sell well here. Since I can't see the need to use a .338 for coyotes, the usefulness of 210-225 grain .338 bullets escapes me completely.

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by 400NitroExpress (18/05/06 07:06 AM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#57318 - 18/05/06 07:06 AM

The 338x 74R sounds neat!!

A DR regulated for a 250 grain would have a SD of .313 and the Woodleigh 300 gr a SD of .375 and that should be plenty good for african plains game. The 250 gr should be great and would be the one a DR would presumably be regulated for!

In a pinch this wildcat may handle Buff as well!!

I am certainly not one to dtermine the need for a certain wildcat but it still sounds like a fun Double rifle unless I have missed something.

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#57319 - 18/05/06 08:14 AM

I would assume In a Double the lighter stuff at higher velocity would be a pain to regulate for the 338 Wildcat. The heavier 250 should be the better Double bullet with more predictable path/trajectory and penetration while the primary advantage of the 225 gr would be the flattened trajectory at distance.. The 225 gr 338 ammo in bolt guns does well for me at 300+ yards for elk and I have killed with this weight bullet at ~350 yds shooting ridge to ridge but that scenario doesn't jive with Double bullet regulation at long distance and the advantages of a Double.

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333Jeffery
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Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida

Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: hoppdoc]
#57324 - 18/05/06 10:09 AM

There's the .333 Flanged, but finding barrels in .333 caliber is almost impossible. The .348 Winchester would be interesting, but bullet choice would be very limited. If you didn't mind belted-cases, there's always the old .350 Griffin & Howe magnum. It's just a .375 case necked-down to .358 caliber, and uses 275gr bullets.

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: 333Jeffery]
#57329 - 18/05/06 12:18 PM

As Jeff Cooper once said "What do you want it for?"

400 Nitro and Capt Curl are correct.

The best calibre for the double rifle hunter under 40 cal iks the 9,3x74R.

Brass, and bullets are easy to get.
The 9,3 doubles are ab olut one half the price of 375 doubles.

They are lighter, sleeker, handier, and kill just as well as the 375 doubles.

I have killed a lot of game with my 9,3x74R Chapuis double,
from bobcats to elephants it has performed PERFECTLY.

It is the ideal double under 40 cal.

PERFECT in EVERY WAY.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: NE450No2]
#57331 - 18/05/06 12:44 PM

The 9.3 is certainly a great double round.

I am curious.

What velocities can usually be obtained with the Woodleigh 250 gr bullet from a Double?

Aside from the problem regulating a lighter bullet weight I am interested in the difference in trajectory out to 250 yds vs the 286 gr bullet. The 250 gr bullet has a SD of .28 which is still quite respectable.If it were used for plains game hunting that would involves shots at longer distances where a diiferent trajectory might matter. Sometimes several inches can meanthe difference between a poor shot or a successful hit.

That begs the question of what max distance you would desire regulating such a Double at if primarily intended for plains game?100, ?150? A scope on that Double could work within those parameters.Most of my Non DG Bolt guns are zero'd at 200 to 250 yards enabling 300 yd shots.

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (18/05/06 12:54 PM)

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: hoppdoc]
#57334 - 18/05/06 03:00 PM

In the context of the kind of difference we're talking about here, I've never bought into the trajectory argument. The issue with extended range on GAME is the reduced energy and penetrating ability, which a lighter bullet only aggravates, in exchange for a few inches of drop - a few inches that won't turn a poor shooter into a good one. Besides, if you're shooting at an elk at 300 yards, the great thing about the double is that the correct hold has already been calculated for you - you just fold up the 300 yard leaf.

Unless, of course, you've bought one of those cheap rifles that doesn't have one of those, or has one that the maker couldn't be bothered to file in correctly. Hell's bells, the Brits did it all the time, and we're better shots than they are, right?

In the context of double rifles, any of the flanged nitros are flat shooting, and the 9.3X74R is flatter still. I watched Tony shoot a coyote at 271 yards with his 9.3. He said he held over his back by the thickness of the horizontal wire, and hit him with both barrels. That's plenty far enough and flat enough for double rifle shooting.

The reason I can't get excited about a medium bore DR wildcat is simple - there is no need to fix what isn't broken. We're talking about doubles, not bolts, and there are so many great DR mediums. The flanged 9.3s (the British .400/.360 Purdey and the German 9.3X74R) generate enough velocity with long, heavy for caliber bullets to consistently provide performance on game that is out of proportion to paper ballistics. As well regarded as the 9.3X74R is, it is still underrated.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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hoppdoc
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#57357 - 19/05/06 08:45 AM

I have been poking around in reloading manuals and comparing the trajectories/energies for the 9.3 out to 200 yds with 250 gr, 275 gr, and 286 gr bullets.No great ballistic revelation was noted vs 338 or 375 caliber bullets at 40,000 psi and similar energies.

The more I look, the more the results of other hunters time tested hunts with the 9,3 ring true. Im thinking that the 9.3 with the 286 gr bullet with a SD of .305 and 2100 fps velocity with ~3000 fpe is a GREAT DR combo!! When I can afford one I want one with a 20 gauge barrel to swap out as well!!

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (19/05/06 08:49 AM)

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: banzaibird]
#57393 - 20/05/06 04:15 AM

*

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: BlainSmipy]
#57394 - 20/05/06 04:38 AM

I have no idea. I'd imagine that perhaps 400nitroexpress could give you better insight if it has been done. For sheer case capacity I'd imagine you would be up near the 577/500 Mag NE case capacity. I also have no idea on what ballistics or pressures would be for your desired ballistics.

On my own project I decided to listen to the voices of reason and build another 9.3x74r. I haven't given up on the idea of the 375 variant however or perhaps my own version of the 400 NE using a .408 bullet diameter. That would just be the 9.3 case basically straightend out. I think I'll just make myself 2 or 3 monoblocks and make myself other barrel sets for the same action.

Bill

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Wildcat for DR project? [Re: BlainSmipy]
#57396 - 20/05/06 05:10 AM

Colorado:

I've never heard of anyone doing that. I can see how it might be an interesting project.

One thought though. The .450 No. 2 has a smaller base diameter than the .500 3 1/4" NE, .565" vs .573". So you gain .25" in length but lose a tad in diameter by using the .450 No. 2 case. The .475 No. 2 NE is also 3.5", but has a base diameter of .580", so it would be a better starting point than the .450. Also, keep in mind that the .250" longer case of .500 3 1/4" NE only saved a half ton of pressure over the 3" and they used the same load.
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