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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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JRiekers
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450/400 = 45-70? (!)
      #57114 - 14/05/06 06:55 AM

I have read a lot of controversy surrounding the 45-70 on these posts. On the contrary I have read positive reports of the 450/400's, particularly the 3".

I have and use both. However, when fairly compared:

450/400 3" (Kynoch and others)400grain @ 2150 (30" bbl)

45-70 (Grizzly or Buffalo Bore) 405 grain @ 2100 (18.5"bbl)

The 45-70 FACTORY LOADED "Magnums" offer as much or more than the 450/400's.

If you average a loss of 25 fps per inch of barrel the 450/400 in a DR of 25" is at a velocity of 2025 fps.

While the 450/400 is approx. .411, the 45-70 is .458 so the sectional density is greater, the kinetic engery is more and the Taylor Knockdown # is higher.

Whatever formula or theory you subscribe to the 45-70 yields a higher # than the 450/400's.

I am not saying that EITHER cartridge should be relied on as a primary stopping round for dangerous or large game, just that they are equally capable for careful applications.

I am getting 2090 fps from my 20" barrel 45-70 with Grizzly Cartridge 405g Alaska Bullet Works Kodiak Bullet. Their PUNCH solid is 405g and doing 1990 fps in same gun.

The Westley Richards factory load in my 450/400 3" is 400g Woodleigh at 1995 fps from the 25 1/2 inch barrels.

I have not used solids in the 450/400 3" so I wont compare.

Overall, the new factory 45-70 high performance loads are equal to or slightly more proficient than the 450/400's.

"The 450/400 was Taylors favorite cartridge for buffalo, though he also shot a lot of elephant with it. He wrote that if he had a pair of doubles in 450/400 he would happily use nothing else for the rest of his career" - Gregor Woods, Rifles for Africa.

Taylor nor Woods had access to 45-70 ammo with modern quality bullets and high velocities that are commonly available today.

The performance they required, and found was satisfied by 450/400's is also available in todays 45-70 "mags".

I make these comments without favor to either cartridge - I like 'em both. I have shot hundreds of big game animals - about 1/2 with each and performance has been notably similar.

Any comments?



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500Nitro
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: JRiekers]
      #57116 - 14/05/06 07:43 AM

JRiekers

A couple of things you don't take into account:-

1. Tradition
2. Being Anglophobic

I haen't yet found a Kinetic Engergy, Mussle Velocity
or Knockdown chart that factors in the polarized view
of people !!!

I still think it will cause controversy.


500 Nitro

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400NitroExpress
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: JRiekers]
      #57119 - 14/05/06 08:27 AM

Lots of errors here.

In reply to:

".450/.400 3" (Kynoch and others) 400 grain @ 2150 (30" barrel)"



Kynoch never listed the .400 Jeffery at 2150. They listed it as 2125 from a 30" barrel.

In reply to:

".45-70 (Grizzly or Buffalo Bore) 405 grain @2100 (18.5" barrel)"



Buffalo Bores lists 2000 fps for the 405 grain from a 22" barrel. Grizzly lists 2050 fps, but don't mention barrel length (which usually means a long test barrel).

In reply to:

"While the 450/400 is approx. .411, the 45-70 is .458 so the sectional density is greater, the kinetic energy is more and the Taylor knockdown # is higher."



??? The sectional density of the .400 bullet is much greater than that of the .45/70. The sectional density of the 400 grain .400 bullet is .338, which is very high - among the highest of the flanged nitro expresses. The sectional density of the 405 grain 45/70 is .276, which is poor for a dangerous/heavy game bullet. None of the popular flanged nitro expresses used a bullet with a sectional density that low. This is where the 45/70 really falls short. It needs 500 grain bullets to achieve comparable sectional density and it can't drive them to the required velocity for deep penetration.

Bullet diameter has nothing to do with kinetic energy.

In reply to:

"The Westley Richards factory load in my .450/.400 3" is 400g Woodleigh at 1995 fps from the 25 1/2 inch barrels."



Fine, but why compare a silly overload in one to an underload in the other? Late run, original factory Kynoch (Cordite) runs 2060-2070 fps in my 26" barrels. It ran 2050-2060 in a 24" Jeffery a few weeks ago.

And the .400 does it at a standard pressure that is ideal for a dangerous game rifle. The .400 case is much larger than the .45/70. The 45/70 can drive a 400 grain bullet to similar velocity only at much, much higher pressure.

Dangerous game + high pressure = really dumb.

The failing of the .45/70 is that it can't drive a bullet of adequate sectional density at an adequate velocity, or at low enough pressure, to be considered ideal for use on dangerous game - far from it. The .450/.400 can.

Whatever formula or theory you subscribe to, the .450/.400 beats the 45/70, badly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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AzGuy
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #57124 - 14/05/06 10:05 AM

Dittos. Very well stated and accurate. I shoot the 45/70 alot, might even take one to Wyoming this fall for elk in heavy timber (of course my back-up rifle will be a scoped 375). But to get "mag" performance, you must really push the pressure limits! It is a grand old cartridge, a classic by any definition. But it is not even close to being a wise choice for a DG stopper.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: AzGuy]
      #57131 - 14/05/06 01:14 PM

It seems that no matter which Hunting/Shooting Forum one goes to, there are, and always will be a couple of people who are hell bent on touting the 45/70 as being better than (fill in the blank). The debate will never end, mainly because every 45/70 afficionado I've spoken to over the years, has his or her mind made up before the conversation even gets started. IMO, it's not even worth my breath to even begin to try having an intelligent conversation with most of them because their minds are made up and tightly shut. There is a place for 45/70s, as there is for any cartridge/caliber, but don't try to make it something it's not. Just my $.02.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #57138 - 14/05/06 05:34 PM

In reply to:

It seems that no matter which Hunting/Shooting Forum one goes to, there are, and always will be a couple of people who are hell bent on touting the 45/70 as being better than (fill in the blank). ..... it's not even worth my breath to even begin to try having an intelligent conversation with most of them because their minds are made up ....



And the arguments are so elementary and simple to understand. Simple concepts such as sectional density, the importance of SD for penetration, adequate velocity for penetration, low pressure vs high pressure, the fact that articles in magazines may not be 100% true, etc etc.

The worst is these .45/70 "debates" are so boring.



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John aka NitroX

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Ndumo
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: NitroX]
      #57140 - 14/05/06 06:00 PM

The other "problem" with the .45-70 is that it mostly shoot cast bullets, not good for DG. I have seen a few jacjketed bullets for it, normally with jackets so thin, it would expand if dropped onto a heavyly carpeted floor....

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: Ndumo]
      #57144 - 14/05/06 09:29 PM



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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: AzGuy]
      #57145 - 14/05/06 09:42 PM

I believe your choice for Elk in heavy timber is a good one, provided proper bullets are used. I've only used a 45/70 on game once.

When I first started hunting, before I owned any rifle of my own, I borrowed a 45/70 that belonged to the father of a friend, and a box of factory ammo. All I remember about it, is that it was a lever action, had a 4X scope on it, and after shooting the M16 in the service, thought that it was the most powerful weapon in the world. To my inexperienced mind, it really kicked like a mule. With it, I got really lucky, and shot a 185 pound dressed, male Black Bear here in Pennsylvania. I shot it in heavy timber surrounding a swamp. The shot was around 45 - 50 yards, and he ran about 100 yards after being shot through the lungs. That was the first big game animal I ever shot here in the US.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #57152 - 15/05/06 01:18 AM

One of the earliest members of NitroExpress.com when it was an MSN group used a .45/70 LA a lot. And used it a lot on black bears. Sounds like a good rifle for them in close cover.

If these Spartan/Baikal doubles ever are released probably a good use for them.

--------------------
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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JRiekers
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: JRiekers]
      #57153 - 15/05/06 01:21 AM

We're not really disagreeing on anything. I stated that I don't view the 45-70 jacked up loads to be a staple on any dangerous game. I merely observe that the same bullet weight at similar velocity yields similar performance (leave out buff and ele, etc).

Grizzly velocities, according to the company owner Mike are based on 18.5 inch barrels. He is getting 2200 fps from a 22" barrel with his 405g Kodiak bullet. My 20" gun shows slightly less than this. The PUNCH bullet is virtually indestructable, has a high SD and penetrates through just about anything in tests. I do not use cast bullets - I tried them and too many break in half on big stuff.

If the situation is planned and the application used intelligently both the 45-70 +'s and the 450/400's are nearly parallel in performance on large ungulates and smaller.

For an intentional dangerous game application I too favor my 450/400 3" DR over anything else I have.

I was curious why 45-70's are so quickly dismissed as an adequate round by the majority of members here and elsewhere. It seems it is mostly put down quickly when DG is in mind. OK - no arguement on that.

--------------------
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J. Riekers - Gunmakers
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: JRiekers]
      #57155 - 15/05/06 02:20 AM

JRiekers

The .45/70 is a respectable enough round for hunts where it is adequate and can be stretched to take some dangerous game.

The reason it seems to get "dismissed" rather quickly by a lot of internet participants has nothing to do with its true capabilities but because the debates on the .45/70 have been so exhaustively brought up again and again, often by individuals that just want to "stir the pot", mostly claiming it is a DG cartridge, that many have not much patience anymore. New participants unaware of past history on 'net forums often are unaware of this and get caught up by the often 'short' negative answers.

I think if the Spartans in .45/70 come out and if they are cheap and good enough, many of us will all become .45/70 users overnight. I will be one.

Would I take one on an African safari? NO.

I would be the equivalent of taking an ex-military 8x57 "as is" unmodified on a $5000 plains game safari.

***

What game have you been hunting with your .45/70 and what sort of terrain? A LA would make a dandy pig rifle in scrub.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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JRiekers
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: NitroX]
      #57165 - 15/05/06 04:11 AM

I have taken elk, black bears, a cape buffalo, oryx, eland, bison(s), nilgai, aoudad, zebra, whitetail, and feral hogs with the 45-70. All have been less than 150 yard shots with most under 75 yards. All together about 50 animals. The PUNCH bullets from Grizzly Cartridge has gone through everything. The 405g from Buffalo Bore is too soft for deep penetration. However, the Grizzly 405g Kodiak Bullet is a bonded core that has penetrated very well.

I have taken nearly the same # of animals of the same types with the 450/400's with 400g Woodleigh Weldcore's. The penetration and performance were all similar to the 45-70 Kodiaks.

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bulldog563
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: JRiekers]
      #57167 - 15/05/06 05:46 AM

I also own a 45-70 LA. It is a fun gun to play around with and a good close cover hunting rifle but not a DG round.

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Judson
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: bulldog563]
      #57180 - 15/05/06 11:21 AM


This 45-70 gambit I deal with in my shop all the time. The factory loads are very low pressure so hopefully a person will not blow up their trap door Springfield and sue the ammo maker. However this hole thing comer down to basic phyisics. To push a givin bullet weight/ diameter at a spicific velosity you need a certian pressure. Yes you can push a 500 grain bullet in the 45/70 to .458 Winchester velosities, even higher but your pressures go up accordingly. A 45/70 loaded to Lazzeroni pressures will beat out the .458 but 70,000 PSI is a bit much don't you think. The bottom line on this is that it takes a given pressure to push a given weight bullet at a given speed, the only way around this is to increase case capisity so we burn more powder at lower pressures to reach that bullet speed. This is how the .450 # 2 NE can reach 2150 with a 480n grain bullet with only 25,000 C.U.P or less. On the other hand you have to burn more powder to get there.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: JRiekers]
      #57183 - 15/05/06 11:40 AM

JRiekers

Thanks. I assume the cape buffalo was in Africa. A gentleman I had the pleasure of meeting in Matetsi in Zim had just hunted a cape buffalo with his .45/70 guide "gun" successfully - 2002. Used a 540 gr hard cast projectile. Planned to return the next year to try for elephant having tested penetration on the elephant he had shot in 2002 (ie a downed elephant). Never did hear how it went or if it happened.

An impressive line up of game listed.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Judson
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: NitroX]
      #57198 - 15/05/06 03:45 PM


Do not get me wrong from my earlier post. The 45/70 is a great cartridge especially when loaded to other then trap door Springfield pressures. However it does not have the case capisity to equal the big British thumpers like the 450
Nitro or the .450 # 2 NE or even the .458 Winchester unless it is loaded to much higher pressures. It is not that the 45/70 is a bad cartridge it is just that every thing has its limitations and a dangerous game cartridge the 45/70 is not.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: Judson]
      #57364 - 19/05/06 10:57 AM

Gentlemen, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the old 45-70 in a good rifle when used for what it was designed to do! IMO, the problem is with those who want to make the old war horse something it is not! IMO It is not a good choice for DANGEROUS GAME HUNTING! Will it take dangerous game? deffinetly it will, but is the best choice if one has as an alternative a real DGR?, NO it is not!
I wish guys would simply start useing the fine old cartridge for what it does best, and that is give the owner a lot of fun shooting, and puts a lot of meat on the hunter's table.
I've done a lot of hunting with a Ruger No1 45-70, and Saiamese Mauser 45-70, and double rifle 45-70, and a mod 1895 Marlin 45-70, and still own the Marlin, the double rifle, and the Ruger No1, but when I get into the weeds with a cape buffalo, give me that little weak 450/400NE 3" double rifle every time!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
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45s_save_lives
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #57622 - 23/05/06 06:19 AM

I saw this post and couldnt resist after having a doozy of a thread on the DG forum of this site.

Anyways all of hte info was basically the same (only politer

Here people readily agreed to the point I was trying to make on the DG forum. That the 45-70 will kill DG and is a bare min to do so with. And if you have a better round i.e. 458, 500NE, etc. it would be a better choice. Gosh why couldnt it have been easier for me?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450/400 = 45-70? (!) [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #57663 - 23/05/06 06:31 PM

Its pretty obvious it is how the questions are phrased, how the arguments are conducted, as to how the questioner is answered.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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