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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: luv2safari]
      #57628 - 23/05/06 07:40 AM


Thank you all for your questions and comments!!! The truth is that my wife and I are working on a book about building custom rifles, gunsmithing, rifles and hunting. We really want it to be a book that is fun to read and enjoyably.
Your comments and questions are very helpful to us and Please keep them coming. I really enjoy being able to share what I know with others out there who also love custom rifles or at least have an intrest in them.
Now to your questions then back to checkering and finishing up the rifle.
In order to lay out the master lines along a curved surface I use both clear plastic templates of the angles for a 3.5 to 1 diamond with a center line running from the point and a clear scale, (ruler) marked out in inches. Either one will conform to most any curve and allow you to use them as a guide when scribing out the master lines. I will get a picture of the lines all layed out and the pattern ready when I do my next checkering job as I am finished with the double rifle and do not have any close ups of that part of the checkering.
How long it takes to build a custom rifle depends on the type of rifle and the details. In general a custom rifle will take around 160 hours or more, for double rifles at least double that. Turn around time is usually about 2 mounths from when I start and again doubles more. This time frame is longer then the actual hours due to drying time during glass bedding, finishing and just plane interuptions.
As far as how to judge the quality of a custom rifle, look at the over all rifle. The inletting should be tight, wood to metal fit should be smooth with the metal never above the wood. Some stock makers will leave some areas of the wood a bit higher then the metal, like about 1/32", this gives some room for refinishing down the road if sanding is required. This is actually a very long winded question and I have a chapter in the book on just this. I will try to post an article I wrote about this, if it does not come out it is on our web site, http://www.customguns.us/ Well I tried but do not know how to get it here. If you go to the site click on Services and FAQ then scroll down, and thank you again for all of your intrest and input.



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It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57631 - 23/05/06 08:41 AM

Is the book going to be a how to book or more of a coffee table book?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: bulldog563]
      #57634 - 23/05/06 09:07 AM


Sort of both with lots of pictures, how to chapters and stories of what it is like to make your living in this line of work. I have writen several chapters on action selection and alterations stock design, stock work including shapping and finishing, checkering and other options. I even have a chapter on wildcat cartridges and figuring out how to develop the loads for them. Also included are some stories of hunting Africa and how I got into this type of work. What we are trying to achieve is a book that any one in the gun world can enjoy reading and learn from. It seems to me that too many "custom gunsmiths" do not want to share their knowledge and thus this is a dying art I am afraid. When I was a 12 year old boy Wallace Gussler shered his knowledge and words of wisdom with me and I have never forgotten him or his kind addvice of wisdom, fact is he is why I got into this line of work. When finished with this book if it entertains, or possably encourages someone to follow in the tradition of some so the great custom gunbuilders, (I am not saying I am one of the greats, but I would love to be!!!) then all the work involved in a book will have been worth while.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57651 - 23/05/06 12:29 PM

Now that we are over my mushy stuff, back to building our rifle. Once the pattern is finally layed out the diamonds have to be deepened untill they come to points. For this I use a single line cutter and again reverse the direction of the cut after every four or five lines. Once you have done a checkering job a few times you can slack off some times and only change direction every ten lines or so. Make sure you do not go too far back on the back stroke with the checkering tool, this whole process is sort of a scrubbing opperation. As the cutter nears the border of the pattern go easy and edge the cutter up to the border and rock it forward then drag it back so you can cut cleanly up to the edge. Here you need a bit of pressure but be careful as it is very easy to jump into either a line yet not cut or the one prevously cut. Before the diamonds are mostly pointed the pattern will have to be gone over five or more times to be nice and clean. Well cut checkering will never hide the grain of the wood, tone it down a bit yes but not hide it. It is for this reason anong others that I will not use an electric checkering tool. I think this picture will show what I mean about checkering not covering the grain. By the way, this is a good way to hide that ugly screw hole for the forearm screw on a Ruger # 1
Please forgive the way the two screws look in the picture!!!!! I think it was the flash as they are North and Sout as are all the screws on the rifle and they are not buggered up!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (23/05/06 12:32 PM)

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SAHUNT
Sponsor


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57658 - 23/05/06 03:25 PM

Judson,
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge, You are quite right that very few quality craftsman is prepared to share their secrets, then it ends up in the grave with them.

Once your book is in print I will take two. You can book my copies so long.

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Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: SAHUNT]
      #57676 - 24/05/06 02:03 AM

Thanks much for the info.

There are so many pearls on this website and this thread that I print certain threads to review at a later date. Great info.

May I ask--

Do you have any hints or visual clues as to the suitability/desirability of different blanks for stocks for DG rifles and their objective grading? I realize that cetain wood parameters determine objective grading but how about wood characteristics/figuring and the ability to withstand severe recoil? I have seen alot of beautiful stocks broken by recoil.



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57691 - 24/05/06 07:43 AM

Thank you for the question. With most good stock woods such as walnut, maple, myrtle, and birch have several things in common. ( I am not saying that all these woods will make pretty stocks just that they have the charistics for a strong stock.)
First lets look at density, the dencer, ( read as heavy), a piece of wood,( lets say claro walnut) is the stronger it will usually be. Good figure does not mean weak but as the figure gets fancier the more important it is to really anilise the grain structure. The majority of stocks broken due to recoil are because of poor grain lay out or poor inletting. I am not aware of any of the stocks I have made splitting or brakeing from recoil or for any other reason.
Years ago only the dencer woods such as Bastogne walnut and such were used for the hard kicking rifles, however today thanks to such things as glass bedding we have much more leway. Glass bedding is not an excuse for poor inletting but it does help to prevent the wood from compressing from recoil and resulting in the common cracked grip behind the rear guard screw. Proper grain should run from as far back in the butt as possable and up through the forearm. When you are looking for a blank and you are told that it is a very nice blank for a light recoiling rifle, RUN AWAY! That is like some one telling you that bald tires are fine for a slow car. Grain lay out is critical for any stock blank, if not right it is fire wood.
When building a hard kicking rifle I would use either hidden cross bolts or the usual double cross bolts and would deffinately glass bed the rifle. When doing the glass bedding job I would like to have about 1/4" of the stuff behind the recoil lug and a cross bolt behind that. The other cross bolt would be in front of the trigger and behind the magizine. I will try to post a picture showing this. For some reason I can not get my site to show up and the pictures are there. If you want to try you can or I will later, the site is http://www.customguns.us/ I got the picture this morning. This picture shows the location for the cross bolts on an P-14 Enfield.



--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (24/05/06 11:41 PM)

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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57695 - 24/05/06 08:22 AM

Thank you again for your kindness and the sharing of your expertise!

I apologize for the questions below but picking the right stock blank is so critical to a serious caliber. I have friends who have had bad luck with their stocks.
Please explain or refer to pictures if possible for the visual verification of ?decent grain layout and what best features we would look for in picking a blank to determine fitness for a big boomer like a 458 Lott etc.

Dumb Question #1- Should the "strongest" grain run vertically up and down or horizontally down the stock for a DG rifle?

Dumb question #2-How can you tell the difference between darker figuring of the wood and "knots" which supposedly make the stock weaker.Can you look at a blank externally and reject it or must you work it to assess it further?

Dumb question #3-- What are your preferred "unusual" dense hardwoods for DG rifles other than walnut?

Sorry to be so ignorant with stock woods.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (24/05/06 09:48 AM)

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57745 - 25/05/06 07:35 AM

You want the grain in a stock blant to run from as far back in the butt as possable and run in a gentlycurve up through the grip and into the forearm. This blank shows just about perfect grain, I have followed the grain with a china marker to help show what I am talking about.


When looking at a blank from the top or bottom you do not want the grain running at an angle off the sides as this too can cause a blank to be weak and also increases the chances for warping. A good stock bloan will be air dried for at least 5 tears, ten is better. Kiln drying is not good for blanks as I am told that it can make the wood brittle though I do not know this first hand as I have never used any kiln dried blank.
Generally you can look at a blank and tell if it will work out. On rare occasions you may find a suprise after you start shaping the stock. I have found internal checks when cutting a blank down to the pattern size. The person who I bought the blank from replaced it pluss shipping. I also have found a few small bark pockets but luckly they cut out.
If any of you people would like me to look at a blank feel free to send some pictures and I will give you my opinion of the blank. As to what other woods work out well for the big kickers Rock Maple, Origon Myrtle and that is about all I can recomend from first hand experiance. The African Black thorn, like I used on my double holds promice but I will reserve judgement untill I have shot the rifle a lot more.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #58172 - 02/06/06 10:09 AM


I have sort of gotten ahead of my self and left a few things out like how to go about the metal work and get an action ready to build a custom rifle. If you would like me to talk about this a bit let me know.
Well I will any way. First you have to select an action. In most of the pictures shown I was working with an Eddystone P-14 action. You will hear stories about the Eddystone action being very tough and hard to drill and tap. For the most part that is true, however the stories about them being lible to crack are not. They will crack when a barrel is improperly removed or at times installed with too tight threads as in forced into the action. This is rare but improper removal of any barrel can cause problems such as twisting or crushing an action.
Most barrels lock up in to locations on an action. First as the shoulder sets up against the reciever ring and second when the face of the barrel sets up against the front of the lugs in the action like on a Mauser. When properly set up just tightening a barrel by hand will cause it to lock up tight enough so you will need an action wrench to remove it. Now imagin giveing that action a smack or two with a hammer and letting oil, rust dirt and grime work its way into things and dry out. The barrel is not going to come off easy!! When removing barrels I use an action wrench which suports the reciever ring for 360 degrees and a barrel vice which clamps in a rather large vice. If a blow or two from a 4 pound hammer on the wrench will not loosen the barrel then I will try penitrating oil, I have found P.B.Blast to be the best. I will let it soak a day and try again, you can use a bit of heat but if you do not know what you are doing you will rouin the action so I do not recomend this. Again I try a couple of blows with the hammer and if nothing happens it is time for the lathe. Set the barrel up in the lathe and cut the shoulder off up to the front of the reciever ring. Your barrel will now come off with ease. On the Enfields I usually just start in the lathe as you can expect them to be stuborn. Next I will talk about what to do to the action once the barrel is off, then to I guess Mausers unless you people have another idea.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #58182 - 02/06/06 12:43 PM

personally, i'd like to see the work that goes into a mauser to get it up to speed for a nice rifle.

heck, if you need a "subject action" to demonstrate with... i'll send you one to "borrow"

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #58199 - 02/06/06 05:18 PM

Judson,

You should check out Steven Hughes shotgun book. I really liked the layout of that book. Excellent way to teach about firearms.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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Toomany_Tools
.224 member


Reged: 28/03/06
Posts: 4
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: new_guy]
      #58763 - 13/06/06 10:32 PM

Judson, thank you for the marvelous thread. I recommend you talk about metalwork details pertaining to converting an Enfield P-14 or US 1917 action. Work required for Mauser-type actions has been covered extensively many places but the Enfield seems to get little coverage.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

--------------------
John Farner
Corrales, NM

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jsl3170
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Reged: 16/12/04
Posts: 48
Loc: Maine, USA
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #58837 - 15/06/06 12:36 AM

Hi all,

I am new to this thread but allow me to say that Judson is the gunsmith my Dad and I have hired to build two rifles for us. Like most projects we have hit some snags along the way and we start and stop but try to keep making forward progress. Judson may be distressed to again discover that some ideas are changing again but that is part of the adventure of this project.

At any rate, my impressions of this project so far are first rate all the way. We came to this project with a thumbnail of real knowledge concerning guns after a lifetime of hunting in Maine. The first cold December afternoon I drove to Jud's place I arrived to find a barn full of people milling about eating cookies that Barb keeps well stocked and handy and lying to each other and trading the needle. What a time!!

I felt instantly welcomed into this group of people who were all willing to share what they knew beginning with Jud and Barb. On the next trip I brought my Dad along and although he is prety shy and retiring at first he definitely enjoyed himself and eventually began to ask questions.

You know, Jud never treated us as less for not knowing as much but instead welcomes us every time we show up and is constantly willing to help educate us. I am at a loss for why he seems to give me such a hard time...

One thing I learned early is that Jud focuses on stock design fitting the shooter with all of the attendant variables. I never understood this point until I watched him shoulder the 366 DGW he built and noticed he didn't have to manipulate his stance; instead the gun rose to meet his eye. Well, that pretty much did it and we decided to hire him to build two guns for us - a father /son deal as my dad had helped me out a few years ago getting over a tough time and when he sold his hunting rifle without qualm I knew I had to make it right one day. So now, as much as we are part of that wonderful little fraternity of hunters in St. Albans, Maine, USA, Judson will always be part of our family by building these beautiful guns for us. When we finish them I know that every time I pick it up a long time from now I'll remember the building of them and the hunting memories that will go into them.

It makes one realize that building a rifle is more than building a rifle and a gunsmith like Jud is more than a gunsmith. He's an artist and a friend.

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: jsl3170]
      #59231 - 24/06/06 09:37 AM

I know who you are!!!! Thanks for the flatery and I give you a hard time because I can, if you are nice, I will let you shoot my double now that it is finished next time you are up.
Now for the P-14 and P-17, these actions are mostly over looked, probably because of the machine work needed to turn this ugly duckling into a swan. All this work can be done by hand but a milling machine and such speed up the tasks. The big Enfield action will easly handle the bigger cartridges such as the .416 Rigby and some have even gone as far as the .505 Gibbs though this is pushing things a bit but the action will take it. The best part of all this is that these actions are cheep and readly availably in their butchered form.
I would not recomend the Enfields for the short cartridges such as the .308 or even for the standard length rounds like the .30-06. You will end up with a heavy rifle or one where you have a very long bolt travel or both. The Enfield comes into it's own with the magnums and the big stuff. I do not like counter bores so I fit a P-14 bolt to the P-17 action or just work with the P-14. For a standard magnum you will not need a counter bore or extractor cut if you do this and in most cases will not even have to open up the bolt face.
Many people feel that the bolt handle on this rifle is rather ugly and want to get rid of it's "dgo leg" look. I have found that the best way to do this and also get rid of the unsightly hole in the bottom of the handle is as follows. First straighten out the handle, you will need a oxi torch for this. Then cut it to length as it will end up way too long. Thread the cut off bolt knob and the bolt shank and screw the thing togther then weld all the way around. Next cut off the remains of the stub from the knob and clean up every thing on the bench grinder and with files. This is what I did on my .366 DGW and then I did a five panel checkering job on the bolt knob for grip. If this picture comes out you will be able to see what I am talking about.


--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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jsl3170
.224 member


Reged: 16/12/04
Posts: 48
Loc: Maine, USA
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #59355 - 28/06/06 12:04 AM

I'll be looking forward to it. However, I didn't know there was nore to be done with it.

See you soon.

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Toomany_Tools
.224 member


Reged: 28/03/06
Posts: 4
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: jsl3170]
      #59358 - 28/06/06 01:39 AM

Judson, great idea on how to straighten the bolt. I have 3 of these actions just waiting to become big bores. Thanks again.

--------------------
John Farner
Corrales, NM

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Toomany_Tools]
      #59466 - 30/06/06 07:50 AM


Now what about the ears that protect the rear sight? Hack saw, mill or blow them off but they got to go!!!! I cut the rear bridge down so that it will take 98 Mauser bases this gives us great leway in what mounts to use on the action. To figure the correct height use your dial calipers to measure from the bottom of the action to the top of the reciever ring and again at the rear ring. Now measure the difference between the heights of a #45 and #46 weaver base. This will let you know how much you have to cut down the rear bridge.
The Enfields can be cut back to open them up for the big stuff like the .416 Rigby. You can cut back beyond the end of the extractor with out any problems but if you are concerned about the extractor carching on the edge of the rear bridge radus the edges of the extractor a bit. However I have never found the extractor catching to be a problem.
On the P-14 and P-17, the ejector box is ugly and the spring overly strong and the ejector spring weak and prone to breaking. The ejector spring breaking is about all that goes wrong with this action but when it does you have a single shot as you have to pick the cases out of the action by hand....I have found that the best way around this is to cut off the little leaf spring and cut to notches of the approprate size and solder a coil spring in place. Between the notches and solder the coil spring will stay put and I have never seen this conversion fail. The ejector box button can go and the hole which hold it in place eliminated with a hack saw or milling machine and cleaned up with files and such. The ejector box spring is shortened and folded over to hide the now open back of the ejector box. If you do not have the means of re tempering a spring just cut off the spring at the back of the ejector box but from the rear this does not look quite as nice. When you are all done with the action you will end up with some thing looking similar to a 720 Remington which I feel is probably the best bolt gun they ever made.


--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Bloodnativ
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Reged: 14/11/04
Posts: 69
Loc: South Carolina, USA
Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #59484 - 01/07/06 03:05 AM

I've been following this thread since it started (I also followed the one about building the DR). This is like manna from heaven. I have long harbored dreams of building my own rifles (bolts and doubles) but other commitments and funding have made it not possible. I think that may soon change. Judson, I anxiously await your book. I will definately take a copy. Please keep the information coming.

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