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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: JPK]
      #55709 - 25/04/06 08:24 PM

In reply to:

I believe that tuskless elephants are more agressive because of the handicap they are forced to overcome with regard to feeding and fighting amoungst themselves.



That is the theory I heard as to explain aggressiveness in tuskless cows and is the one which makes logical sense to me.



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shakari
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: NitroX]
      #55745 - 26/04/06 02:53 AM

Me too - but the tuskless cows in other parts of Africa don't seem to be as aggressive as the Zambezi ladies and I'd say the Zambezi ladies (esp the tuskless ones) get hunted harder than those elsewhere in Africa......... so that's why I reckon their being hunted could well be the reason for the added aggression....... hence my comment, but it's just one of my pet theories and I could well wrong.........

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Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
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JPK
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: shakari]
      #55753 - 26/04/06 03:41 AM

My sum total of elephant experience is two tuskless shot during a fairly comprehensive safari of 18 hunting days. One was shot in Chewore South in the Zambezi Valley. One shot in the Save Conservancy at Humani Ranch in the south eastern lowvelt. We tracked and ran into many elephants but still very limited experience. For what its worth, I found the elephants in the Zambezi Valley quite mild mannered compared to the elephants in the Save.

This was the belief of the PH as well and other PH's who we talked to in the Save. As I recall, their theory is that the Zambezi Valley elephants are afraid of man because of hunting and will generally leave the county when they scent or sense you, given an oportunity. Too close and you are discovered and their protective instincts kick in. The Save elephants are just plain agressive all of the time because of the memory of heavy poaching during the bush war. Apparently they haven't been hunted until fairly recently but have always been bad tempered.

They sure were bad tempered, with the tuskless the most most noisy and agressive by far, except for one tusked cow which had a reputation for charging at the sound of an engine or the sight of a vehicle. I think they put her down recently since she was eventually going to catch a vehicle and hurt someone but I'm not sure. She very nearly caught us.

On OLN I watched a Save bull charge the hunters from fifty yards or so, as the hunter and PH were working into position. The elephant was in the open and there was no impediment to flight in any direction. On the other hand, I read another fellow's post, here or elsewhere, can't recall, about his experience in the Save, but not at Humani, and his impression was that the elephants were calm and good natured. Perhaps the thick green bush of Humani along the Turgwe River is the difference.

I believe 500 Grains also found the humani elephants in the Save elephants very agressive.

JPK

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: JPK]
      #55763 - 26/04/06 04:41 AM

Well unless I am mistaken one of the few places where cow elephants can be hunted is Zimbabwe. And they have an excess of elephant anyway from most reports.

Cow elephant hunting is banned in Botswana, Namibia, Mozambique and Tanzania isn't it?

But my real question is this. If it is so bad for a herd of elephant to shoot a cow, why isn't it EQUALLY as bad to shoot a bull???? Surely if elephants have these unique memories, pysches or whatever, a shot bull would have as much a detrimental effect on nearby elephants as a cow?

Perhaps by this logic ALL elephants should be culled by professional shooters and then a lot of outfitters would find themselves out of business!

I think a lot of this might be the attaching of human emotions to elephants but it is interesting and worth catching up on some reading about it.



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EricD
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: shakari]
      #55767 - 26/04/06 05:08 AM

In reply to:

Me too - but the tuskless cows in other parts of Africa don't seem to be as aggressive as the Zambezi ladies and I'd say the Zambezi ladies (esp the tuskless ones) get hunted harder than those elsewhere in Africa......... so that's why I reckon their being hunted could well be the reason for the added aggression....... hence my comment, but it's just one of my pet theories and I could well wrong.........



Steve,

I have to dissagree with you here. The reason being that the most agressive tuskless cows I have been around were in Uganda (where they haven't been hunted for many years, besides occational poaching, and in that case it isn't the tuskless that are interesting for the ivory poachers).

Also, in Botswana, I encountered tuskless cows in Moremi. These were also extremely agressive (as it seemed all elephant were in Moremi), and again, the tuskless there are not hunted.

At least that is what I observed when compairing the tuskless cows I hunted in Zim last year, with the numerous other elephant I've been around in other African countries where they aren't hunted.

Erik

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500grains
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: News]
      #55770 - 26/04/06 05:19 AM


I think the bias against shooting cow ele arises from antiquated notions of chivalry. Proper game management means keeping numbers in check and this cannot be done with bull-only hunting. And the desire for genetic diversity argues against taking out whole family groups.

And whenever I hear an explanation like "It's too complicated for me to explain to you..." I know that it's a load of B.S.

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EricD
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: EricD]
      #55771 - 26/04/06 05:25 AM

As JPK mentions, elephant die all the time from natural causes. Including 4 legged preditors such as lion that sometimes take elephant calves. So an occational 2 legged hunter shooting a member of an elephant herd isn't really much differant than the occational lion killing one. And it is certainly swifter and less noisy with a bullet.

Erik

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EricD
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: DDouble]
      #55772 - 26/04/06 05:26 AM

In reply to:

NON-CONSUMPTIVE means: you fly a jet that burns 30 tons of fuel on the upper atmosphere (destroying ozone), fills the land with trash, build huge hotels, build roads, drive thourgh the parks, take millions of tons of iron from mines to make cameras, and waste thousands of gallons of the most toxic chemicals to make cameras batteries and developing films. And then you conclude: we are non-consumptive turists!!!




Dante,

That was very well said, and should be a standard argument against the antis!!!

Erik

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shakari
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: EricD]
      #55812 - 26/04/06 03:46 PM

John,

I don't consider myself a fundi on this but from my experiences the cows have much much stronger bonds between each other than they do between cows & bulls. Logic would back this up. After all, the cows pretty much spend their entire life with the same group of females......When you shoot a bull, it's either alone or in the company of a small number of other bulls and at the shot they generally all bug out in whatever direction they're pointing. .... and don't usually come back. With cows, they tend to bunch up and react as a team or unit.........and will often come back to see what happened to whoever is missing. Their behaviour at all times indicate to me that cows have much stronger ties to each other than the bulls. Because I'm not a fundi, I don't try to explain all the reasons, frankly, I couldn't do a good job of it....... but my advice would be to read the books I mentioned as they will go some way to explaining the differences. As I said, I don't agree with them all, but they do all raise good points and are all worth reading.

Erik talks about Elephants in places I've not been lucky enough to get to yet - and it could well be that he's right..... I certainly wouldn't ever doubt his word. I'm basing my statements on the areas and the Elephants I've had personal experience of only and then tieing it into what I've read. As I said, it's up to each individual to make up his own mind. I certainly wouldn't like to think I'm trying to convert anyone.... I'm just expressing a personal opinion.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
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Edited by shakari (26/04/06 04:16 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: shakari]
      #55816 - 26/04/06 04:28 PM

Steve

Just playing devils advocate .....

But if a bull is shot among a small herd of bulls how do you not know it is not seriously affecting the other bulls which "bug off" and are not seen again?

If the mental anguish is serious for cows, then it would not be unreasonable to assume bulls carry the same or similar issues.

Yes I do intend to read some of the references. But I think it is an attempt to put human emotions into animals.

***

Anyway my thoughts are:
* trophy hunting of bulls is good for the species as it adds value to the animals in the eyes of human neighbours and hopefully their stomachs as well. This is an expensive hunting option but for those that can pay, good for them.
* selective culling of genetically inferior cows is 100% a goal especially where serious genetic inefficiencies such as tuskless occurs. I do not believe the killing of whole herds of elephant is anything of a solution to remove SPECIFIC animals and can't see any logical argument for this.
* If a herd is in serious over-population I can't see why hunting of cows is not permitted on a limited basis
* If a herd is in serious over-population a whole of herd cull approach may be the best solution in terms of recovering the economic value of the cull ie tusks, recovery of meat and skin for re-sale. I think this approach is more due to economic commercial recovery and profit making or loss reduction than any biological justification.
Also this method is likely to be the MOST CONTROVERSIAL and damaging in the general media and uninformed public and probably is one reason culls have not been happening to any great amount to the detriment to the entire elephant population.
* PAC elephants should be hunted where serious and especially if over-population is the norm, both cows and bulls, to protect local human habitants and their livelihoods.

What happens to the herd if a PAC cow ele is shot? Even if most PAC elephants shot are bulls.

I personally don't have a problem with shooting a bull or a tuskless cow, but think a wholesale slaughter of a herd is a bit sickening and would really like to be part of it. Might be interesting but doubt if one had theopportunity that slaughter would be fun whereas hunting is.


--------------------
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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shakari
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: NitroX]
      #55818 - 26/04/06 05:43 PM

John,

As ever, you raise great points...... My replies are "as I believe". As I've said, I don't consider myself a fundi so will only voice my opinion. Here goes:-

The other bulls seem to have a far less close relationship and from my experience of their behaviour they don't seem to be anywhere near as disturbed by the shooting of another bull as cows are disturbed by the shooting of other cows.... This also seems to be the case when an Elephant is darted. The darted bull goes down and the other bulls just back off and watch..... do the same with a cow and the other cows have to be watched very carefully indeed......... actually, sometimes you feel you need eyes in your ass!
I don't know if mental anguish is the right term..... that to me is transferring human emotions to animals - but I would go as far as saying it changes their future behaviour...... of course, it could just be that the bulls have bad memories

Personally, I question that a lack of tusks must be a genetic weakness...... it could just be evolution at work equally it might not be...... but as I'm not a zoologist I don't know.

I understand the desire to feed any locals with the surplus meat - but this won't apply to everywhere in Africa. Selous for example doesn't allow human habitation in the reserve. I don't know much about the economics of skins etc so can't comment. Ganyana might be able to advise us on this.

To me, the culling of an entire herd results in the highly unpleasant fact of taking out the young - sadly, the ones that I know that have been spared and translocated elsewhere have always ended up as "problem" Elephants and from my experience it's more humane not to try to save them in the first place........ However, I appreciate it must be the most God awful thing to do to have to shoot them...... but life sometimes isn't pleasant.......

There's lots of talk about PAC Elephants but I've always found that real (persistent) problem Elephants tend to be bulls, usually young/adolescent bulls...... but others might have had other experiences. The first priority of cow Elephants is to breed and look after their young..... hence they're usually pretty damn wary of taking the kids into an area that might cause them problems. I've personally never known of cows that cause persistent problems..... but the word problem can mean different things to different people. Some will say an Elephant that opens a water pipe once will make it a problem Elephant to be shot - others will say it's a thirsty Elephant that doesn't have enough water available to it.

I also agree with your sentiments about the unpleasantness of a cull...... which is why I personally believe it's not a place for a tourist hunter and should only ever be done by professionals...... to say nothing of the fact that it's bloody dangerous........

However, as I said, I'm all for the sport hunting of bulls - although I would obviously prefer the costs to be cheaper. Tanzania has a minimum size/weight requirement for tusks which I think is a good idea. It makes it tough for the PH but it succeeds in conserving the numbers and quality of the Elephants.





--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
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JPK
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: shakari]
      #55829 - 26/04/06 11:53 PM

This is an interesting discussion and I have seen the cows come to the assistence of the fallen herd member and I have seen them bug off at a high rate of speed too.

The question isn't whether cows react to the death of a herd member, since elephants die all of the time from many causes. It is whether they react significantly different when a herd member dies from a hunters bullet than when a member dies from malnutrition brought on by old age or disease or lion or...

I don't think anyone knows the answer to this, not sure anyone could ever know the answer to this. Logic leads me to suspect that theories ascribing some particular reaction to an elephants death by a hunter's bullet rely on anthropomorphism, or ascribing human traits and emotions to animals, and anti hunting or at least anti elephant hunting.

Will have to look into some of the books though.

JPK

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shakari
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: JPK]
      #55832 - 27/04/06 12:55 AM

Anthropomorphism - damnit that's the word I've been searching for! - As I said somewhere (and I've forgotten where!) - I must be suffering from oldtimers disease!

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Steve "Shakari" Robinson
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DDouble
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: JPK]
      #55833 - 27/04/06 01:08 AM

- COW BEHAVIOUR
The greatest TRAUMA an elephant cow could have is to starve!!! OVERPUPULATION has shown to make elephant cows KILL THEIR BABIES!!! If they are intelligent and have great memories, can you imagine the devastating effect of killing your own doughters to save water and food for yoursel, in front of their older sisters??????????????

- NON-CONSUMPTIVE
Erik, a study in the Selous states that you need over 20 photographic safaris to achieve the same financial benefit to the communities, thus having a far greater environmental impact. I will try to find the website address.

- HUMANI ELEPHANTS
Elephants of Humani are totally crazy! I only bowhunted there twice, mainly by stalking, and it was really dangerous to walk around with a recruve and only Choice carrying a pistol to scare the ele!!

Humani elephants came from a culled NP herd and thus are extremely dangerous and cannot be trusted. They are not wild animals, but orphans raised in a ranch. Not nice.

THE KENYA "SCIENTISTS"
Some authors Steve mentioned, STATE things in their books which are not scientific and not even WILD GUESSES. This is particularly true for some "tree huggers" so called "biologists" from Kenya who always make points about Zim and other hunted elephant herds that are pure speculations. And whatever they say National Geographic Documentaries transform in DOGMA. One of them is that hunted elephants are traumatized.

Traumatized is an elephant with a lion on the back of its baby, with nothing to eat, raiding shambas, being chased by villagers at night with fire, hitting eletric fences, stepping on metal spikes put by farmers, etc, etc.

Animals don't know what the intentions are, so it is certain they are far more traumatized when chased by helicopters and then darted to put a radio-collar than to have someone quietly stalk and shot you in the brain.

Hunters should shoot the elephants, cows or bulls, and lets have 50% of the tags left for the AFRICAN people, because we need them to hunt, to keep their hunting heritage. Even if it only impala. This is the most important. They should not be outcompeted and made into non-hunters. Otherwise, when they have the means they will be anti-hunters.

ELEPHANT QUALITY
An elephant cow, a tuskless or a hundred pounder bull may have the same quality. Probably the meat quality and the hide quality of the 100# bull would be the worst of them.

What is quality? An area where natives and hunters are respected in their culture, where all animals, small and big elephants, small and big mammals and birds and tress are all respected and valued, but above all quality is a place where no one species, including HUMANS are perceived as not part of the mix. We should not be made apart of nature, but to be an integral part of this great show of life that has been going for a few billions of years.

Dante


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Ddouble

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JPK
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: DDouble]
      #55848 - 27/04/06 04:19 AM

Shakiri,

Don't feel too bad, it took me two pages of post to remember the term.

DDouble,

I was told that the Humani elephants were relocated from Ghona Re Zhou NP shortly after the bush war and were agressive because of the rampant and messy poaching, with AK's and poor shooting, by the ultimately successful rebels.

Perhaps the remenants of a couple of herds were moved.

JPK

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gryphon
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: JPK]
      #55872 - 27/04/06 09:20 AM

-

DDouble

COW BEHAVIOUR
The greatest TRAUMA an elephant cow could have is to starve!!! OVERPUPULATION has shown to make elephant cows KILL THEIR BABIES!!! If they are intelligent and have great memories, can you imagine the devastating effect of killing your own doughters to save water and food for yoursel, in front of their older sisters??????????????


Have you somewhere i can find reference to this killing of their young please?

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DDouble
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: gryphon]
      #55874 - 27/04/06 09:32 AM

Gryphon,
This behaviour was observed by (if memory doens't fail me) the Joubert couple who live in the Lynianti/Savuti area of Botswana. Belive it or not it was part of a National Geographic documentary.
The behaviour was filmed in a water hole that was drying through the long drought that lasted a couple of years in that area. And as water was finishing the adults did not allow the small ones to drink.
DDouble

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Ddouble

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gryphon
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: DDouble]
      #55875 - 27/04/06 09:33 AM

I`m familiar with the Joubert`s work but havent seen that doco,thanks for that cobber.

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shakari
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Re: To cull or not to cull, easy bloody question! [Re: gryphon]
      #55907 - 27/04/06 03:53 PM

Hey,

Like I said, I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just expressing a personal opinion......... which hasn't changed.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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