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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: bayonets and cat guns [Re: Yogi000]
      #54930 - 16/04/06 12:22 AM

Have you given any thought to using brass cases ?
They are available from Buffalo Arms in the States.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: bayonets and cat guns [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #55065 - 18/04/06 01:21 AM

Regarding Brass Cases--- According to several companies and reloading experts I spoke with (StarsStripes, Balistoic Products, etc) brass cases are less desirable than plastic hulls or even paper. It has to do with sloppy fit, blow by, etc. I am not an expert on this but the overwhelming advise was: inconsistent fps and poor accuracy often result from brass cases. Yet, I love how they LOOK. So much so I recently ordered sevral boxes of them loaded up with round ball from starsandstripes, just because I think they look so awesome, and I will also try shooting some of them to see for myself about this reported accuracy diminishment of barss shells to the modern plastic hulls.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #55070 - 18/04/06 02:52 AM

allenday,

I just got the same feeling you did.

I just visited Stars and Stripes website and I saw a short paragraph stating that people are now using their shotguns to hunt in Africa...

In reply to:

STARS & STRIPES AMMUNITION SLUG SELECTIONS
DANGEROUS GAME SLUG (DGS)
As mentioned previously, shotgun hunting is on the rise, and it is on the rise for all types of big game hunting. There are people going to hunt Africa and Asia with their shotguns, and people are hunting large heavy game here in America more frequently with their shotguns. Due to the size and sometimes the disposition of heavy and dangerous game, a very specialized slug must be used if the hunter is going to be successful.

The DGS series of slugs are not just for dangerous game, they are also our premier slug for all big game hunting. This slug in 12ga is suitable for virtually all game with the exception of some of the largest African varieties. The performance level of the DGS series outclasses any discarding sabot and all factory rifled slugs. DGS slugs have outstanding accuracy in both smoothbore and rifled barrel applications.



This is the some total of any endorsement on that website for using these slugs for Dangerous game. Not very specific, just kind of vague. No testimonials and no claim of actual use in the field use. Just this vague statement.

I also didn't see any reports on muzzle velocity or energy.

Now these slugs may be everything they claim them to be, but right now their claims all seem theoretical and unproven

I also went to Ballistic Products Website and saw no claims about using the slugs for DG. The Slugs they list are the ones from Stars and Stripes.

Right now the claims made by Stars and Stripes appear all to be unproven marketing hype.

I would want to know a lot more before I tried to hunt any DG with these slugs or any one elses slugs let alone rely on them to stop a charge.

I think for now I will rely on a bit of knowledge I gained in 47 years of hunting and that is to take the word of those who have the actual experience. I wouldn't hunt DG with a shotgun.

Now as to these gentlemen desiring to take their slug guns to Africa or even Kansas to hunt. I say good on them go for it. Go do what we all have done and get your experience. Make your mistakes or not and then share those experience with others in the future. You may be right about these slugs, so prove it.

I killed my first deer with a 30-30 94 Winchester. Today I would not even consider using that gun or cartridge for deer. Because I got experience.

So go for it guys!








--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Loc: New York, USA
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: DoubleD]
      #55076 - 18/04/06 06:20 AM

Okie Dokie!

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jorge
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Reged: 13/07/05
Posts: 88
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: Yogi000]
      #55096 - 18/04/06 12:35 PM

Gents: that is a BOGUS advertisement, fraught with enough "plausible deniability" to keep a team of lawyers busy for years. Just consider this; IF as they say slugs were being used to take {sic} dangerous game in africa, would it not be wise to post pictures and testimonials like Weatherby used to do with their old "Weatherby gudie" publication? Further, let's examine the issues the 458 Winchester Magnum had with poor penetration.

That was a 500gr slug with a sectional density wayy oast the .300 mark (that being the minimum standard recommended for DG) that when velocities fell uner 2000 fps, penetration was abysmal. SO, ask yourselves if that was the case, how on EARTH can a slug, no matter how hard and with a much lower velocityof less than 1500 fps be able to penetrate sufficiently to reach the vitals of tough, thick skinned game? Gentlemen often-times there is a very thin dividing line between the sublime and the ridiculous and this issue obliterated said line. jorge

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: DoubleD]
      #55120 - 18/04/06 09:34 PM

In all fairness they say "This slug in 12ga is suitable for virtually all game with the exception of some of the largest African varieties." To me that means no Elephant, Rhino, Buff, or Hippo.

I think the most misleading thing is the name they chose. Big game slug or something like that without the DG in the title would be more appropriate because it does seem like it would be more effective then a normal slug on big game.

If I lived in a shotgun only hunting state and/or I couldn't get a DR it would be a good substitue in a DB shotgun for deer to Elk sized game but for true thick skinned DG I am very skepticle.

I think Yogi said the the 3" Mag 12g was 500gr @1620.... at least its better then the 45-70.

Honestly though with so many suitable options out there for DG that aren't more expensive then a good Shotgun whats the point of using something that seems pretty marginal at best on DG?


--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: California
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: bulldog563]
      #55122 - 18/04/06 09:38 PM

To test the penetration someone should bring a few DGS shells on their next DG safari to test penetration after the Buff or whatever when it is on the ground. Although I wouldn't use them on DG I would be interested to see what they can do.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: bulldog563]
      #55123 - 18/04/06 09:39 PM


All this talk re "bore guns", I think eveyone should look back in history
to the era of hunting with BP Big Bores - 4, 8, 10 and 12 and have
a read of what the old hunters said.

You may notice that not many thought a 12 gauge bore gun was
up to it, hence the prevalene of 10 and 8 bores.

We seem to forget the past too readily and try to reinvent the
wheel 10 times over every year.

500 Nitro

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: jorge]
      #55130 - 18/04/06 10:27 PM

jorge (..and subsequent posters!):
You need a more open mind on this subject!
Here in Australia's Northern Territory, many hundreds of buffalo have been laid low over the years with the standard 1 1/4 ounce Brenneke shotgun slug fired from various smooth-bores, most frequently the CBC break-open single-barrel gun! With a side-on chest-shot, the slugs typically pull up in the off-side ribs or under the hide after penetrating the chest cavity. We're talking ~550 grains of hardened lead at 1500 fps, not your average 1-oz Foster POS!

Hell, even one of your countrymen has decked an American buffalo with Brennekes recently, read about it in the latest American Slug Shooting Assn Newsletter.
He even includes a pic of the recovered slugs! Beautiful!




BTW, not defending the "dangerous game in Africa" claims, just pointing out that there is a gross underestimation of the effectiveness of the purpose-built modern base-wad shotgun slug in jorge's last post.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: DoubleD]
      #55136 - 18/04/06 11:58 PM

All I know is, I'm not buying any part of this entire theory............

AD

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jorge
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Reged: 13/07/05
Posts: 88
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: allenday]
      #55143 - 19/04/06 12:44 AM

Marrakai: I don't think it's a question of "open mindnedness" if you will. People use longbows to take elephant also, but just like when people extoll the virtues of Karamojo Bell and his 7X57 and elephants, the rest of the story is often overlooked and that is, how many were wounded and ran off to either recover or die?
The issues with the slow velocity 458s was real and documented. And perhaps most important of all, IF slugs were that reliable, and given the cost of doing business, don't you think it would have fostered some kind of following in the PH community? Plainly stated, I think somebody's trying to sell some neophyte SAP a bill of goods regarding slugs, but if you know any PHs go ahead and ask them if you could book a hunt for any of the Big Five (or six) and tell them you'll be armed with a 1500 fps pumkin roller of a smoothbore shotgun and slugs, then post their answers here. jorge

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allenday
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Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: jorge]
      #55147 - 19/04/06 12:53 AM

You can be so "open-minded" that all your brains fall out........

AD

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: allenday]
      #55149 - 19/04/06 01:01 AM

I think we're getting a few PH's opinions here already...

Like I said, I'm not defending the 'dangerous game in Africa' claims, but Brennekes are effective against buffalo, whether you like it or not. I could jump the back fence and kill one with a Brenneke tomorrow.

But if I were shelling out many thousands of US dollars for that 'once in a lifetime' buffalo hunt in Africa, would I use a slug-loaded shotgun? Not on your life!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: Marrakai]
      #55247 - 20/04/06 12:26 AM

Let me clarify what we are talking about here. Colorado and I have a line on a gunsmith who converts shotguns to light nitro double rifles. This post was badly titled and has spun off onto a tangent from its original intent.

What we are asking is here is: what do you think of a cape gun based on a .577 or .500 light nitro and a 3” 12 gauge for about $3000.00? Does anyone this there is a place for such a firearm today?


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
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Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: bonanza]
      #55251 - 20/04/06 01:04 AM

For $3000 I think it would make a nice "fun" combination gun.

I could see myself using it in a number of hunting scenarios such as mixed pig and small game hunting at shorter ranges. a .500 or .577 even at slower velocities sure would have "authority".



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #55252 - 20/04/06 01:17 AM

As your original post stated----"a very capable SxS double in a short barreled hard hitting combo of 500NE or .577NE and 12GA 3" mag", ...I think it would be great.

I like the COMBO idea. Flanged big bore on one side and 12 gauge 3 inch mag on the other.

If I was in dangerous game land, hunting them or following up on them I would still load the 12 bore side with a DG hardened and heavy and high velocity slug, and not use pellets. In my humble opinion, the new DG slugs are incredibly fierce killers and I would feel confident in hunting DG game with them, having the 500NE or 577NE in the other barrel is great too. I would be confident with both or either, is all I am saying. It is sorta like: if you ONLY trust a 577/500 and do NOT trust the 12 GA 3" Mag then it makes no sense to have the 12 GA 3" in one of the barrels at all. It appears some guys do not have any faith in the modern DG magnum loaded slugs, so they are pissing on your idea. I think you do have to have experience with the DG slugs like the Brenneke 3" Black Magic Magnum, or another big DG slug, before you begin to like them...

Moreover, your price of under $3,000 is very appealing. I would want to see the craftsmanship, and learn more about the approach you're using and I need to have warm fuzzies about the reliability, however, I would give you guys an order for one of these combo guns if I liked the rest of the info from you.

Go for it!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: Yogi000]
      #55254 - 20/04/06 01:28 AM


Yogi,

In reading your post I think you may have a misunderstanding.
The 500 and 577 in the COMBO gun would be the NITRO for BLACK POWDER
or LIGHT NItro Loaing, NOT the full NE Loading.

It's a big difference.

500 Nitro

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Charles_Helm
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Reged: 09/11/05
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Loc: Dallas, Texas
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: bonanza]
      #55255 - 20/04/06 01:29 AM

In reply to:

What we are asking is here is: what do you think of a cape gun based on a .577 or .500 light nitro and a 3” 12 gauge for about $3000.00? Does anyone this there is a place for such a firearm today?




Personally I would rather have a double light nitro rather than that type of cape gun.

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #55262 - 20/04/06 01:54 AM


I'd rather have a Nitro proofed Paradox - the you have a Double Rifle and
a Double Shotgun, both of which will work when required.

A Cape Gun is a compromise.

You can buy Paradox's (LOW end Hollands, Cogswells etc) for
a bit more than what it would cost to build a Cape Gun.

500 Nitro

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: 500Nitro]
      #55268 - 20/04/06 03:12 AM

I'm still debating if one of these would make a good back woods gun. Being a breakdown design makes it easy pack-in and essentially you have a hard hitting rilfe and a shotgun.

I'm thinking it would be a good rifle for a bush-pilot in Alaska or any one who might need to spay buck-shot at close range.



--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #386799 - 14/09/24 09:09 PM

Is this the best wounded leopard follow up gun?

24 inch barrels, One barrel .577 2 3/4" LNE, one barrel smooth 12-bore.


Quote:

Colorado

Obviously you are not the first person to consider the .577/12g cape gun concept! Maybe not as a specialised "Leopard Rifle" though.

Here is the gun for you:






W.W. Greener shotgun / rifle combo Cape Gun

WW Greener no. 70571 combo 12 bore shotgun by .577 rifle. Originally a 12 ga SxS shotgun, it has been converted to a Cape gun and is in excellent rebuilt condition. Based on the Empire action with a new mono block, the work was completed 2 years ago. With 24" barrels with 1 standing rear sight. Restocked butt and forend with excellent wood.

Weight is 10 lbs, LOP is 14 ¾" over a Silver's pad. DAC is 1 1/8", DAH is 2".


This was a cape gun advertised for sale some time ago and featured as a "double of the day" on NitroExpress.com.





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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HeymSR20
.300 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 245
Loc: Scotland
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #386800 - 14/09/24 10:06 PM

In the pioneering days in Africa which probably ended by the time of WW2 a Cape in 577 and 12 bore would probably have been quite useful for a farmer or a settler. The rifle would have good for dealing with elephants, buffalo, hippos etc, with the shot gun barrel useful for birds, small buck etc. When opening the batting against a big animal you could have loaded a brenneke or paradox type bullet into the shotgun barrel which, whilst not as effective as a 577 NE bullet, would at least have given a follow up. Lion and leopard, you might have switched to buckshot instead - very effective when range is sub 10 yards.

But in the pioneering and settler days guns of any sort where expensive. Far more likely a 303 SMLE would have been taken as a rifle along with some form of cheap but robust Birmingham and Belgian made box lock or hammer 12 bore double.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26991
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Leopard Gun build in .577NE and 12Ga 3" Mag [Re: HeymSR20]
      #386806 - 15/09/24 02:11 AM

Interesting topic. We here have "Challenger" made in Canada slug loads in standard 2 3/4" hulls with the Gualandi DGSlug at 1,610fps. The slug is a bit light at 496gr., just over 1 1/8ounce.
They are very accurate from my rifled Mossberg 24" bl.
They are my go-to for camp bear gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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