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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Levallois
.300 member


Reged: 27/11/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Arizona, USA
Which 450 caliber is this?
      #5291 - 30/11/03 06:44 AM

Good afternoon folks,

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving in the states and all are well and proseperous wherever you call home. I am curious as to what 450 caliber has the following stamped on the barrel: "450 EX 120-270" ? What kind of hunting cartridge is this, how hard is it to reload, etc. I appreciate your help.

John

--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: Levallois]
      #5339 - 02/12/03 02:44 AM

This is only a guess but I think this is the 450 BLACK POWDER EXPRESS, with 120 grs of black powder, and useing a 270 gr bullet! Probably the same case as the 450NE 3.25" only an early black powder express!

450EX 120/270:

450EX= .458 dia Express round

120= 120 grs Black Powder

270= 270 gr bullet, probably paper patched lead!


Can you tell if this is a bottlenecked cartridge, or a streight case? If it is streight the above applies,and is the exact load listed in the 1910-11 Eley ammo catalog! IMO, this is the cartridge your rifle is chambered for!

If however, it is bottle necked, I may be the 500/450#1 Express also a black powder cartridge. This one is made by necking down the 500 case to 450, with a finished length of 2 3/4" case, and the load offered for it, in the old Eley catalog, is 450 bullet, with 110 grs black, and a 270 gr bullet!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Levallois
.300 member


Reged: 27/11/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #5343 - 02/12/03 07:54 AM

Thanks for all the great information Mac. Looks like a straight case to me so the .450 3 1/4" bpe is the most likely candidate. I'll make a chamber cast just to be sure. Should be a fun cartridge to shoot.

John

--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: Levallois]
      #5346 - 02/12/03 10:21 AM

Levallois, Is this a double rifle? If so, then a regulating starting load with smokeless powder will be with the 270 gr bullet, and 40 % of the Black powder load, of 120 grs, or 48.o grs of IMR 4198, with the airspace taken up by Dacron fiber fill, to hold the powder down against the primer. The dacron fiberfill can be found in any fabric store, it is pillow stuffing. Enough should be used so that the fill is slightly compressed when the bullet is seated. To quote Ross Siefried on the use of dacron, and 4198, for regulateing a black powder double rifle with smokeless powder! Quote: We must find something better because, with this recipe, we only get perfect velocity, perfect pressure, perfect accuracy,and perfect regulation. Un-quote

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Levallois
.300 member


Reged: 27/11/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #5348 - 02/12/03 10:47 AM

Mac,

Actually, it is a William Field patented action single shot - half a rifle but better than none. I cannot currently afford a double but someday I'll own one. In the meantime this single should be fun. As far as using smokeless in these BP rifles - aren't the spikes in pressure different between them? I don't mind using BP loads - it's part of the fun.

John

--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: Levallois]
      #5359 - 03/12/03 09:15 AM

There is absolutely nothing wrong with useing black powder in your black powder rifle, but by the same token there is nothing wrong with the load I gave you, it simply duplicates the black powder load in every way, pressure, velocity, and accuracy. The black powder you get today is not of the same quality as it was when that load engraved on your rifle was developed. It is almost impossible to get enough modern BP in a given case to dupe the origenal load. The fact is, to duplicate the actual old load, with black powder, one must do a duplex load, with a small amount of smokeless on the primer, and the remainder black powder. Of course in the single barrel rifle the use of all black powder will only give you a weak load, and since no regulation is needed, will simply just not shoot to the sights at the ranges they were cut for.

None of this is critical in a single barrel, but if you were shooting a double rifle, black powder simply would not regulate the rifle and either a duplex load, or a regulateing smokeless load would have to be used! Of the two choices, the Duplex load is far more dangerous, if you make a mistake, than the smokeless load useing dacron filler!

Have fun with you single shot, they were a very big part of the hunting field when they were made!



--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Levallois
.300 member


Reged: 27/11/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #5387 - 04/12/03 07:03 AM

Mac,

Thanks, I didn't know there was such a smokeless powder and that BP loading today would be different than in the past. Why is that?

I agree that the British single shots are fun and I think that as a group you'd be hard pressed to come up with a better looking bunch of rifles - especially the Fraser and Field patented guns.

John

--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: Levallois]
      #5389 - 04/12/03 01:15 PM

John,

You might want to consider using Hodgdon Triple 7 Black powder substitute. It's what I use in my 577/450.

You might also look around for Swiss brand Black powder it is a little more energetic that Geox black.




--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (04/12/03 01:18 PM)

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: DoubleD]
      #5390 - 04/12/03 01:59 PM

You should try ffg or fffg instead of the traditional fg. The old BP was much finer than most modern shooters realize. Seyfreid has written loads about this.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: mickey]
      #5395 - 04/12/03 05:26 PM

John:

The reason that loading for the British black powder express rifles like your .450 3 1/4" BPE is a bit different today has to do with the difference between the English 19th century black and modern black. As Mick stated, Victorian era black, such as the Curtis & Harvey's Number 6 that these cartridges were normally loaded with, was a finer granualation than that commonly used in BP rifles today. There is more to it than that though - finer grain modern black behaves differently at higher pressures.

GOEX FFFg usually comes quite close to duplicating old black in low pressure, non-express cartridges. However, at the higher pressures of the BPEs (your .450 with 120 grains black & 270 grain bullet at 1975 fps is rated at 11 tons = 24,640 cup) the GOEX is 15 - 20% less efficient than the old black. The result is that you can't get enough of the modern black into the case to duplicate the original velocity with the same weight bullet. As Mac noted, with your single this is no problem, except that it won't shoot to the elevation that your sight leaves are filed for. This is also why the BPE doubles can be so difficult to get to regulate with modern black - the inadequate velocity increases barrel time causing the barrels to shoot wide. As alluded to in the Seyfried quote that Mac posted, the IMR 4198 "nitro for black" conversion cures this problem with no increase in pressure - which is why it is so widely used for the BPEs today, and why Mac recommended it.
---------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Levallois
.300 member


Reged: 27/11/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #5413 - 05/12/03 01:39 PM

I appreciate the replies very much. Looks like I've got a lot to learn and, thanks to you all, I'm on my way. It would be nice if Mr. Seyfried would put all his articles in one book. I wrote him recently about a 375 flanged 2 1/2" rifle I have and he wrote me right back and was very helpful - a classy guy!

John

--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: Levallois]
      #5425 - 06/12/03 01:47 AM

I would like to hear more about the 40% rule. This is something new to me that I have not heard before. Is this something that Mr. Seyfreid came up with via his experiments or is this old science rediscovered? Does this apply only to IMR4198.

The only misgivings I have about the topic is the use of Dacron. Does Mr. Seyfreid offer an explantion for dacron loads being "blamed" for ringing chambers?





--------------------
DD, Ret.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Which 450 caliber is this? [Re: DoubleD]
      #5435 - 06/12/03 06:33 AM

This formula has been around for quite a while. I think Seyfried probably did develop it, but I don't know for sure.

No, the formula is specifically for 4198, so it would not apply to any other propellant.

The only reference I can remember Seyfried making to the claim that polyester filler has been responsible for ringing chambers was awhile back. As I recall, he said that this was probably due to using far too little of it, if indeed the filler had anything to do with it at all. He stresses that enough should be used to insure some compression when the bullet is seated. Seyfried has indicated that he has never ringed a chamber and he has certainly been using polyester fiber for filler in doubles longer than anyone else I can think of. Personally, I doubt the claim. I've used it in doubles for 15 or so years myself and have never had a problem.
------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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