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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Shotgun Not For The Birds
      #52699 - 18/03/06 06:15 AM

I'm learning alot about shotgun slugs since starting my quest to develop a big game and dangerous game worthy double barrel slug gun and appropriate slug combinations for various dangerous game and big game.

To refresh, I started with an Italian made 12 gauge smooth bore. 24 inch cylinders. 3" chambers. It is a side by side... I like hunting close range.

I am about to try Fiocchi and Brenneke slugs.

However, there are three other companies that claim to make dangerous game slugs and all say I can reliably shoot their slugs out of my smooth bore. Of course all recommend testing and finding which of their slugs work the best.

First---
http://www.starsandstripesammo.com

They make a Thunderbolt dangerous game, a regular dangerous game slug, and round ball slug ammunition. They also make an AQ which is supposed to be a technology lending to greater accuracy. Very helpful, too. I am buying some of their slugs today.

Second---
http://www.ballisticproducts.com
They also make a "thunderbolt" slug.... hmmmm both companies claim there thunderbolt is their's. Okay. I can accpet that. They also make dangerous game and round ball, too. I am buying some of their slugs too.

Third---
http://www.dixieslugs.com
Interesting product and company. Their website needs lots of work but the owner is helpful and it looks like their PredatorII slug will be quite a lethal slug in my double barrel. They are heavy, conical and hardened for max penetration and impact. I am buying some of his slugs too.

All of the slugs I'm looking at in 3 inch or 2 and 3/4 inch will deliver awesome power and most claim excellent penetration as well. Starsandstripes can custom make slugs too and one of their customers tells me he uses a tungsten carbide that he has dropped asian buffalo with faster than ANY rifle he or his PH have ever witnessed...

At 1500 to 1600 fps and with a hardened 1 & 1/8 ounce or a 1 & 3/8 weight, with approx .735 diameters (nose diameter at .450") we are talking an extremely lethal "blow" with more penetration that most people are attributing to a typical slug. These are MASSIVE projectiles and they are not soft.

I know at this point the naysayers will jump on the "no accuracy" argument. Well, the fact is I hunt close range. And, yes, I expect repeatable 2 inch groups at 50 yards. That is about maximum distance I'll be hunting anyway. Why do I need a 200 yard gun/slug combination when that is NOT what I'm pursuing?

As of this writing, can I report 2 inch groups at 50 yards yet? Nope. I have been scoping out the suppliers of danegrous game slugs and ball ammo and I think I found 3 good ones right here in the US. I am going to be giving all of them the tests, and yes that includes hunting with their slugs. However, I highly recommend---if you haven't already---visiting these three companies and seeing what they have to offer in slugs for dangerous game and for big game.

Happy hunting! Blam Blam.

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oupa
.300 member


Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: Shotgun Not For The Birds [Re: Yogi000]
      #52905 - 21/03/06 11:35 AM

Interesting... very interesting, please keep us posted on your R&D progress. As a side note, I have used Balistic Products' wads and such for sporting clays and trap shooting as well as their steel shot supplies. Always found them knowldgeable and very helpful.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Shotgun Not For The Birds [Re: Yogi000]
      #52918 - 21/03/06 02:36 PM

Yogi:
I'm always happy to be proven wrong, because it often means something very interesting has happened, but I think you'll find that the Dixie Slugs will tumble unless fired from a rifled (or rifled-choke) barrel. They have no way of achieving stability in flight unless spin-stabilised. The Brennekes use a plastic or felt base-wad which stays attached to the projectile all the way to the target, to act as a 'shuttle-cock' and maintain nose-forward stability. Even the humble Foster slug is nose-heavy with a hollow lead 'skirt' to achieve the same effect, though not as reliably as the Brenneke-type slug.

Give the Dixie slugs a go by all means, but I wouldn't be expecting spectacular results. In fact I wouldn't be expecting 2-inch groups at 50 yds from any smooth-bore slug-gun, though I'd sure be happy to achieve it!

I appreciate your desire to 'buy American' but the Brenneke is the industry standard, and would be my recommendation for the bulk of your efforts.

Keep us posted.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: Shotgun Not For The Birds [Re: Marrakai]
      #53131 - 23/03/06 08:27 AM

Good post.

The ballistic products and the starsandstripes dangerous game slugs come with molded fins and they claim are stabilized and won't "tumble". I have talked with several people who actually use their slugs on dangerous game like asian buffalo, big cats, boars etc and they tell me they are lethal and very accurate within 50 yards which is what all who intend to hunt with slugs expect and want.

The dixie slug does not tumble according to the owner of the company. They have rifled ribs that make them shoot true through a smooth bore, I am told. They are also consierably harder than regualr lead slugs.

All of these dangerous game slugs are hardened and they are conical or nose shaped with a mechanism to make them spin true such as spiraled ribs. This would give them substantial stability and penetration once they reach their target. I also spoke with a hunter who has starsandstripes load for him a "machined copper solid slugs" with a blunt nose design. He said he has used them successfully on all big game except elephant. He doesn't hunt elephant period with ANY rifle or sluggun. But he has shot many buffalo with a slug gun.

Like any hunting effort, the gun and the projectile are key elements of the equation. You don't hunt dangerous game with a "very light", soft leaded sabot slug. Just like you wouldn't take a high powered rifle and but a soft nosed light bulet in the chamber and head out for dangerous game... And some people say slugs can't be used but it appears they are arguing against sabot or another small or soft slug, and NOT even giving any merit or consideration to the "Dangerous Game" slugs that are being used and used successfully.

I will be testing all of these slugs in my double barrel slug gun. So, I'll let you know if the holes are round or not. I am waiting on shipments for the slugs and also I sent my gun out to get Edwards Recoil Reducers installed and a 1 inch HIVIZ stock pad to take the sharpness out of the kick. I am shooting 3 inch shells with some substantial slugs --- 1 and 3/8 oz, which is approx 520 grainers. Being .715 or even .735 in diameter that punches both ways. Thus far, though, I must say that the kick from this gun with the slim factory butt plate has NOT been that harsh. Yet, it is a light gun, under 8 pounds. I think I want the recoil reduction technology employed and a bit more weight (11 ounces) before I really get into the testing and hunting.

And yes I think it is good to try different things and experiment before assuming something will not work. So far, I can say that this double barrel 12 gauge gun shooting 1 and 3/8 ounce hardened conical slugs is a mighty fierce weapon and the jury is still not 100% convinced I should carry it to hunt anything, but the next round of tests is critical.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Shotgun Not For The Birds [Re: Yogi000]
      #53201 - 24/03/06 01:28 AM

Yogi:
Here is the fact-sheet on the Dixie 'Terminator' slug, they definitely specify rifled barrels, and there are no 'rifled ribs' on the slug of any sort:

Dixie 'Terminator' Slug





Here is a pic of the Dixie 'Predator' slug, also no rifled ribs.




I had assumed you know that rifled ribs on a shotgun slug do NOT impart any spin to the slug, neither within the barrel nor in the air during flight. They are simply a collapsible centering device to keep the slug straight as it passes through varying degrees of choke in the various shotguns in which it will be fired. Successful slugs need some way of achieving stability, and maintaining it in flight. The 'moulded fins' you refer to may well achieve this, but a Dixie slug won't unless fired in a rifled barrel.

Anyway, give them a shot by all means, you just never know till you have a go!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: Shotgun Not For The Birds [Re: Marrakai]
      #53213 - 24/03/06 05:14 AM

Thank you for the corrections and observations.

Not sure about the dixie slugs only for rifled barrels though, the writeup on their website that I found does say both. But hey, you may be right and they are BEST in rifled and crummy performers is smooth bores. I don't know, yet.

Also, I have elected to load my own slugs using ballisticproducts slugs. I ordered everything needed yesterday. It is not as complex or as expensive as I thought. The Thunderbolt using one of their middle of the velocity grid recipes will generate some impressive numbers: Kinetic Energy of 3113 (about that of a 35 Whelan); Momentum of 92.3 (same as a 404 Jeffrey) and a Taylor KnockOut of 97 (more than a 500 Jeffrey or a 505 Gibbs).

I realize the numbers are close range. And, that is fine for what I am doing: hunting close.

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