Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles
      #52167 - 12/03/06 05:16 AM

Recoil is usually a problem with any serious DG firearm. This is important because it can affect the speed of the followup shot if needed if that worst case scenario occurs and a DG charge occurs.

What methods have forum members used to deal with this issue besides recoil pads?

Stock configuration?
Mercury inserts?
Clothing Shoulder pad inserts?
Lighter faster ammo?
Muzzlebrakes?
Barrel porting?
Stock captured spring/hydraulic recoil devices?
Gun weight?

Any there any other devices out there to be considered?
The pain and flinching secondary to Double shooting is irrelevant if you cannot shoot the 2nd shot effeciently in a timely manner.You loose the entire benfit of the Double concept--correct?

Any comments or suggestions to improve response times regarding that 2nd aimed double shot with the big doubles?





Has anyone

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #52168 - 12/03/06 06:18 AM

In reply to:

The pain and flinching secondary to Double shooting is irrelevent if you cannot shoot the 2nd shot efficiently in a timely manner. You loose the entire benefit of the double concept--correct?



Generally, no. With a .577 or .600, maybe, but not otherwise. A properly built double just doesn't have the recoil of a comparable magazine rifle. It just isn't an issue.

A double rifle is a basic tool that should be used pretty much the way it comes. If it doesn't fit you, get something else. You can change/add a pad, etc., otherwise leave it alone. If you can't handle the recoil, get something else. No double should ever be ported. I've shot doubles with recoil reducers in them and am convinced that they don't work. The weight they add dampens recoil, but no more so than simply building the gun that much heavier to begin with, and the sloshing in the butt destroys good handling. A pound of weight makes an amazing difference in felt recoil.
-----------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Grizzly
.333 member


Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #52175 - 12/03/06 07:37 AM

Stock fit, most importantly length of pull. Too short and you'll suffer, too long and you'll suffer. Doesn't have to be down to the nearest 1/100th of an inch. Our Length of pull changes somewhat based on weigt gain or loss, muscle tone, clothing, etc. But it needs to be within an acceptable range.

You don't want your face so close to the breach that you detach a retina (a double does not have the breathing space a 6 inch bolt gives you), bust yourself in the nose or blow out an eardrum. Likewise, you don't wanta stock that is too long throwing off your aim or separating a shoulder.

Stock design can also go a long way in disappating recoil.

It is also important for the total weight ofthe rifle to be commensurate with the caliber. For a 470NE, something in the 9-11 poind range. For a big 577, at least 13.5 pounds.

The way the rifle balances helps a lot. MOre weight past the mid point may help with the amount of barrel rise after a shot but won't help your shoulder.



--------------------
SCI Life Member
DSC Life Member
DRSS Member

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #52178 - 12/03/06 08:16 AM

Hoping I do not offend I will take the discussion further.

I agree that stock fit and weight are critical but should we be open to other options to inprove the shootability of Doubles? Are they perfect as is [like art] or there other modifications that could help?

Maybe with options you could shoot a 577 intead of stopping at the 500NE or move up to a 470 from a lesser caliber.

I agree that mercury "tricks" are not acceptable and I don't like how the guns shoot.I do like porting in other rifles as it lessens the muzzle rise and keeps the gun on target better. I think that muzzle brakes would be a technical mightmare but I have them on other guns and they are noisy but efficient. Stock mounted spring dampened recoil devices work well in Shotguns by extending and changing the nature of the recoil curve over time like shock absorbers on your car. Truly ugly, but simple and efficient.

At the risk of raising a stink and being tarred and feathered--
Should any changes that ruin a Doubles fine lines be taboo or is better shootability something to strive for? Can we make them better in this respect? Who knows?

I would luv to shoot a 577 but lacking any recoil assistance and with it delivering 120 ft/pounds of recoil to abuse my brain,retina, bone and tissue, I think I'll pass and stay with smaller doubles with faster 2nd shots.



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (12/03/06 08:18 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #52185 - 12/03/06 11:20 AM

I know of a couple doubles that have been ported. They have shorter barrels now and have been re-regulated.

What can be done to improve shootability is done by the maker. Doubles are slaved to the recoil they generate - it's called regulation.
-----------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #52189 - 12/03/06 12:08 PM

In reply to:

Should any changes that ruin a Doubles fine lines be taboo or is better shootability something to strive for?



Shootability is the primary concern for me regarding double rifles.
I really don't want to lose any of the doubles fine handling qualities but I can definately put "looks" lower on the list than the most important issues of useability, shootability and service-ability and reliability.
But then I am not a double rifle researcher or collector, but rather a double rifle shooter and hunter.
My doubles are for the hunting field not for the gunroom or shooting range.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #52190 - 12/03/06 12:13 PM

In reply to:

I know of a couple doubles that have been ported. They have shorter barrels now and have been re-regulated.



400,
Can you give us some more details regarding those ported doubles?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #52192 - 12/03/06 12:42 PM

Hoppdoc:

My old man took my .500 NE to the range today with a couple of guys who post on AR, including Retreever who brought his 450 No 2.

We should get our .577 NE in about two months. When we get it, we are heading to the range and inviting any other brave soul who wants to come.

My pop lives outside of Philly. But, when we head to the range, you are more than welcome to come along and make those dogs bark if you are in the area!

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: clark7781]
      #52197 - 12/03/06 01:51 PM

Did Terry Murphy, aka'cats', show up there also?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MichiganShooter
.224 member


Reged: 31/10/05
Posts: 19
Loc: Tri-Counties, Michigan, USA
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #52205 - 12/03/06 05:08 PM

4Seventy,

Here is somebody in Michigan porting doubles called Answer Rifles: http://www.answerrifles.com/subpages/kreighoff.html

Please note, however, that earplugs cannot bring down the decibel level of a ported barrel to levels safe to your hearing. Even if you put on earplugs and muffs, you will still suffer permanent hearing loss every time you pull the trigger.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: MichiganShooter]
      #52215 - 12/03/06 07:26 PM

MichiganShooter,
Thanks for that link.
Yeah, most porting is bad news on the ears for sure.
I used ported (braked) bolt guns for quite a few years back in my pro shooting days and my hearing has been stuffed ever since!
Can't begin to imagine porting on a double!

Edited by 4seventy (12/03/06 09:37 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: mickey]
      #52231 - 13/03/06 01:14 AM

mickey:

yes, mt dad did say cats showed up towards the end of the shoot.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
1980E26
.300 member


Reged: 03/05/05
Posts: 195
Loc: USA
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #52235 - 13/03/06 02:49 AM

400NE,
You stated that a properly built double does not have the recoil of a bolt rifle. Im not trying to offend but unless I have missed something a 400gr bullet at 2200fps generates the same amount of recoil in a bolt gun as a double rifle given the same gun weight, bore dia, etc.

Now the perceived amount of recoil might be different due to stock construction, barrel lengths, balance, etc.




Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 1980E26]
      #52238 - 13/03/06 03:20 AM

I don't particularly enjoy shooting targets with a big double especially "off a bench" (ie standing rest) but in the field I have never really been bothered by the recoil.

Good fit and adequte weight to calibre size is two important factors in shootability. Also making sure the rifle is held properly.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 1980E26]
      #52243 - 13/03/06 04:18 AM

corbinshell:

Your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding....

Yeah, you missed something.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #52264 - 13/03/06 11:44 AM

In reply to:

A properly built double just doesn't have the recoil of a comparable magazine rifle. It just isn't an issue.



400,
I'm also interested in hearing more about that opinion.
Reason being that I have experienced exactly the opposite when dealing with a 458 win bolt gun and a 470 double of similar weight and firing similar velocity loads and bullet weights.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #52267 - 13/03/06 12:24 PM

I would think recoil is recoil after quantifying it by foot pounds and the velocity it was delivered. The only other variable is HOW the gun delivered it to the shooter.

With similar recoiling guns logic suggests it is just the person to gun fit that alters ones personal perception of that reality. For some doubles seem less recoiling. For others-not so.

Any suggestions why?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #52271 - 13/03/06 12:45 PM

Handling recoil is a learned skill. It is an exercise in pain managment. Start with reduced loads, and work up until you can handle full thottle loads. When practicing, shoot 8-10 light loads and your very last one full. Don't punish yourself, put the gun away and shoot another day.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #52280 - 13/03/06 01:41 PM

In reply to:

I would think recoil is recoil after quantifying it by foot pounds and the velocity it was delivered



Not so, as other variables affect felt recoil as well. Powder charge weight and burning rate comes into play with the big bores when dealing with felt recoil.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #52281 - 13/03/06 01:57 PM

Powder charge is signifigant and is best quantified in the recoil velocity description of recoil. More powder means more recoil velocity.The body withstands recoil better if it is delivered over a longer period of time, ie a lower recoil velocity.

The critical components of recoil are bullet weight, rifle weight, bullet velocity and powder burned.Footpounds and recoil velocity can then be determined.

That reason is why overbore cartridges like the 30-378 or 378 Wby are so obnoxious. The have a large quantity of powder escaping through a proportionately same diameter exit hole gives a venturi effect and thus increasing the recoil velocity substantially.That HURTS more!!

The big bore shells are basically straight walled but the powder volume is a signifigant issue as anyone knows if they start burning more powder for hotter loads in their doubles.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (13/03/06 01:59 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #52296 - 13/03/06 03:46 PM

Alan:

I said "properly built" and said nothing about equal weight. I've never fired a British built large bore double that was anything like as intensely unpleasant as the large bore magazine rifles I've shot.

Large bore magazine rifles are usually too light for caliber, while doubles, especially the British guns, rarely are. Also, the British stock design doesn't belt you in the face the way most others do.

A .470 double that kicks harder than a .458 bolt action of equal weight? Was the butt of the double pointed like a stick? That's very, VERY hard to believe.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #52304 - 13/03/06 04:48 PM

In reply to:

The big bore shells are basically straight walled but the powder volume is a signifigant issue as anyone knows if they start burning more powder for hotter loads in their doubles



You do not have to create hotter loads to increase the recoil.
A change in powder buning rate can and often does significantly alter the felt recoil even when the velocity remains the same.
This is why some shooters prefer 4350 to 4831 in big bores like 470, 500 NE and others as the felt recoil is less with the slightly faster 4350.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #52306 - 13/03/06 05:09 PM

In reply to:

A .470 double that kicks harder than a .458 bolt action of equal weight? Was the butt of the double pointed like a stick? That's very, VERY hard to believe.



Only to those who are very, VERY hard to convince!

You are free to believe or disbelieve anything you read here on the forums.
However, I still have access to both these guns and would be happy to prove what I have said.
Wanna put some money up?
I take credit cards, cash, or fine doubles.

The 458 was ported, magnaported, and was one of the first rifles to be done here in Oz.
How much difference it made to the 458 recoil I don't know as it was done before I bought it.
Some time later one of the guys who took over the Oz Magnaport said that the rear side ports were not done correctly on that rifle and the only reduction in recoil would be in the muzzel lift.

However, the 458 was at least 1/2 pound lighter and was clocking an extra 50-60 fps compared to the 470.
The area of the recoil pads was similar but the 458 had a very thin pad with little cushioning effect.
The 458 was running the full 2125 fps and had plenty of healthy recoil, but it was a pussycat compared to the 470.
For anyone who thinks they know about recoil effect in big doubles, if they have only fired the heavy for cartridge British rifles, they would not know what the lighter guns are like.
Believe me, there is a world of difference between 10 1/2 pound 400 and a nine pound 470.
A very, VERY large difference!

Comparing a 458 to a 470 in similar weight guns you have to remember that the 470 is loaded with close to 40 grains of extra powder when loaded with 4831 or similar and this combined with the fact that the 458 requires a much faster powder makes a big difference to felt recoil.








Edited by 4seventy (14/03/06 01:42 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Grizzly
.333 member


Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: RECOIL ISSUES with Doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #52338 - 14/03/06 01:36 AM

I can't point to any authority on this, but I believe the rate of twist also plays a role. Doubles have a relativey slow twist rate - around 1:19 - 1:21. In my experience, bolt guns have a much faster twist rate.

In a typical double, the bullet makes a little over one revolution, where it make two or more in a bolt rifle.

That HAS to have an impact on pressure. And it seems that more pressure would equal more recoil. The difference between feeling a hard push versus feeling a sharp bang to the shoulder.

Just a thought, and my 2 cents (3 cents Canadian).

--------------------
SCI Life Member
DSC Life Member
DRSS Member

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 836 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4078

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved