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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #93342 - 03/01/08 06:13 PM

Safety is a relative concept. Personally, I never found the need to walk around with the safety catch disengaged in any hunting situation I have ever been in, except one time when I was participating in a driven hunt for wild boar in Bulgaria and using a BRNO ZKK 602, which had a safety catch which worked just the opposite of the 1917 Enfield safety I was most familiar with. When I got to my assigned shooting point, I carefully released the safety in anticipation of some quick action, but when two yearling (Ueberlaeufer) pigs ran across my front, I threw the rifle up and promptly instinctively pushed the safety catch forward, reengaging it.

I have hunted over the years with a number of target shooters, including members of the United States International Skeet Team. Once, my brother and I were shooting quail with one such team member, who had also been a sniper instructor in Vietnam and a hunting safety instructor at Fort Sioll, Oklahoma. The dog came on point facing up a small gully, and I walked up behind him, my friend was on my left and my brother and my friend's wife were on my right, all slightly in front of the dog. The birds flushed straight away from me, giving my friend a passing shot and me a straight away. In the excitement of the moment, my friend fired and hit both his wife and my brother from a distance of about 40 yards. The shot hit his wife in the legs, but other than the pain involved she was uninjured, thanks to the thermal underwear whe was wearing under her jeans. My brother ws not so fortunate, since he had only khaki pants for protection. Several pellets broke the skin, not only on his legs, but also in his face, where several reside to this day.

As far as soldiers on the battlefield moving with their weapons unlocked, I am sure this is accurate, but I am equally sure that the percentage of combat injuries and deaths related to friendly fire are far greater than reported. I have watched the kind of training soldiers are given, and most of it consists of shooting from a concrete simulated foxhole over sandbags at pop-up targets. As far as I have been able to determine, virtually no training, if any at all, is given to equip troops to move safely on the battlefield without endangering their comrades.

I have never handled a Krieghoff S/S double rifle, but I am quite familiar with a similar cocking arrangement with Krieghoff drillings, and my main objection to it is that it displaces the safety slide to an inconvenient location. I have Krieghoff, Sauer and Greifelt drillings, all pre-war, and all with the separate rifle barrel cocking arrangement. However, instead of a slide on the neck of the stock, the rifle barrel is cocked by means of a lever on the left side of the action. I have one post-war Krieghoff drilling with the same arrangement. It is easy to operate with the left hand and does not interfere with the operation of the normal, shotgun style safety.

My bete-noir in the safety department is the Greener safety, which I find very difficult to disengage and almost impossible to reingage while wearing gloves. If there is a trick to this which I have been unable to master, I would welcome being told about it.


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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #93343 - 03/01/08 06:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I can guarantee you that very many soldiers worldwide have their safeties off when walking around with loaded rifles. The safety they use is the one between their ears, having their trigger finger alongside the trigger guard until ready to fire, and keeping their barrel pointed in as safe a direction as possible. Just like they've been drilled to do under stress.

And if a soldier is able to do so safely even when surrounded by team mates front and back in a CQB situation, why shouldn't a hunter? Providing he/she drills as much as they should of course.

Not that all hunters are able to reach that level of training (in fact I'd say the majority should definitely have the safety on until mounting their rifle/shotgun), but just pointing out that there are actually grey areas when it comes to what can be considered safe and un-safe gun handling procedures.




That's true Erik, but I think two differences remove the "grey areas" entirely. I don't think that the level of risk associated with weapons accidents acceptable in war, or in the training for it (and deaths from such accidents occur in both) is acceptable in sport hunting. Also the difference in duration and intensity of training...




I think we agree 400NE, which is why I mentioned: "(in fact I'd say the majority should definitely have the safety on until mounting their rifle/shotgun)".


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k80
.333 member


Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: EricD]
      #93355 - 04/01/08 01:40 AM

Come by and talk with Norbert
formerly with Krieghoff now
at Alamo Sporting Arms. He will
be at Dallas Safari Show all
4 days and can answer all your
questions and hear your comments.
Say hello to me while you are there.


ATTN: NORBERT WILL NOT BE IN DALLAS
DUE TO DEATH IN FAMILY IN GERMANY.

Edited by k80 (08/01/08 12:32 AM)


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #93357 - 04/01/08 02:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


The point being you don't weight till the middle of a charge to take the safety off so why would you weight to cock your Krieghoff.




Sorry, but that's a particularly irresponsible statement, as what you describe is unsafe gun handling procedure. The safety is disengaged only when the rifle is mounted to shoot. If you've stopped, mounted the rifle and are waiting on the shot, fine, the safety can be off. At any other time, the safety of a rifle or shotgun should be "on". This is especially true when you're under stress and expecting the need for a snap shot any second - because people make mistakes under stress, and that's when failure to follow proper procedures are so potentially fatal. That's why safety procedures are drilled - so that you'll do what you trained under stress.





400NE,

Going back to this statement. Why is it irresponsible to say your rifle should not be uncocked until the hunter is in the middle of a charge?

Bill's full post is below:
Quote:

The point being you don't weight till the middle of a charge to take the safety off so why would you weight to cock your Krieghoff. The thing I like is it is absolutely safe when not cocked. You don’t have to recock it after a reload so it doesn’t slow you down that way. After you practice with the Krieghoff you will find the safety to be second nature as it should be and when you have game in your sights you won’t notice the slight increase in effort to move the safety lever.
Bill




To me, he is saying virtually exactly the same thing as you are saying? Note the bold sentence.




No, he isn't. Re-read my post responding to him.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: k80]
      #93363 - 04/01/08 02:54 AM

Quote:

Come by and talk with Norbert
formerly with Krieghoff now
at Alamo Sporting Arms. He will
be at Dallas Safari Show all
4 days and can answer all your
questions and hear your comments.
Say hello to me while you are there.




I've had some discussions with Norbert. From your post, has he acquired the business of the fella that was the Krieghoff distributor in San Antonio (I forget his name), or is he working for him now?

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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k80
.333 member


Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #93404 - 04/01/08 01:25 PM

400: They are now partners in the
new named company.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas


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smicha6551
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Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #93551 - 06/01/08 01:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I can guarantee you that very many soldiers worldwide have their safeties off when walking around with loaded rifles. The safety they use is the one between their ears, having their trigger finger alongside the trigger guard until ready to fire, and keeping their barrel pointed in as safe a direction as possible. Just like they've been drilled to do under stress.

And if a soldier is able to do so safely even when surrounded by team mates front and back in a CQB situation, why shouldn't a hunter? Providing he/she drills as much as they should of course.

Not that all hunters are able to reach that level of training (in fact I'd say the majority should definitely have the safety on until mounting their rifle/shotgun), but just pointing out that there are actually grey areas when it comes to what can be considered safe and un-safe gun handling procedures.




That's true Erik, but I think two differences remove the "grey areas" entirely. I don't think that the level of risk associated with weapons accidents acceptable in war, or in the training for it (and deaths from such accidents occur in both) is acceptable in sport hunting. Also the difference in duration and intensity of training...




There is some training done nowadays regarding movement in close quarters with weapons given to troops, though most shooting is still done on a square range. I recognise that there is some dangerous game out there - but no animal poses the risk that another man does, and the idea of not using one's safety because troops clearing buildings in Iraq might not do so strikes me as rather foolish. Further, troops don't allways do the most appropriate thing. The M4/16/AR-15 safety can be flipped off rather quickly and easily - I'd think as quickly as one could mount it and get a sight picture on someone.

I wouldn't hunt with anyone who insisted on walking about safety off.

I can't see how to operate a Greener side safety with any haste at all.


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: smicha6551]
      #93601 - 06/01/08 10:05 AM

Quote:

I can't see how to operate a Greener side safety with any haste at all



smicha:
On a DR or heavy drilling, the Greener side-safety can, and probably should, be modified to include a proud rib, like this:

BEFORE


AFTER

Even when modified, they are still nowhere near as slick as a tang-safety, if that's what you're used to.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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DM
.300 member


Reged: 12/02/07
Posts: 107
Loc: mid west USA
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: Marrakai]
      #93837 - 08/01/08 12:40 PM

I hated the safety as it came on my Krieghoff drilling, so i had a new one made with a longer button. I also had it rotated foreward, so it pushes down too.... This is a huge improvement over the factory safety and it works very well...



DM


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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: Marrakai]
      #93841 - 08/01/08 02:19 PM

I like the idea, which the photos illustrate perfectly, but what, exactly, is a "proud rib"?

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: xausa]
      #93842 - 08/01/08 02:31 PM

Marraki is refering to the steel rib added to the greener safety slide and visible in the second photo. The gist is that the added steel rib, sicking out from the formerly nearly flush button or slide, makes quickly sliding the safety to "fire" much easier.

"Proud" in this context means "protruding from" or "standing above." Hope this helps.

JPK


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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Krieghoff Classic Big Five in .458 Win Mag [Re: JPK]
      #93999 - 10/01/08 06:01 PM

I have trained, and trained with, several different US and Foreign Military Elite Units and US and Foreign Swat Police.


Some units that used H&K Weapons did operate with their safetys off at all times.

Those units that used the M-16, M-4, AR-15 type weapons always operated with their safetys on, until the decision to fire was made and the gun was on its way "up".

When I operated with an H&K 33K, or an H&K 91, I "worked" with the safety off, and my finger behind the trigger, until the gun was on its way "UP".

When I used a M4 the safety was on till the gun was on its way "UP".

When hunting, I keep the safety on, or in the case of a Blaser keep the gun uncocked until I have decided to shoot the animal.

When I feel it is proper I take the safety off/cock the gun in preperation for the shot as I raise the gun.


If the shot goes away I make the gun safe.

Whether in combat or in hunting, unsafe gun handling cannot be tolerated.

I really like H&K guns, but many teams have gone away from them because the safety is difficult to operate when in normal ready gun.

If you carry the gun sideways, close to your chest, when the decision to shoot is made, then you take off the safety as you bring the gun "UP".

Bottom line is, you do not want to be shot by the bad guy, or killed by the DG [both I would consider an honorable death], but you sure do not want to be killed by an accidental discharge.

Nor kill some one else by a mistake.

Bottom line is, if you know your gun, are confident in your ability, then you will not be nervous and make a mistake.


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