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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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André
.333 member


Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Brussels (Belgium)
Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!?
      #51223 - 03/03/06 03:12 AM

A common -but not necessary sound- practice for manufacturers of economy doubles is to retrofit rifled bbls. on an existing shotgun receiver (mostly 20 ga.). I've known some to shoot loose in but a few hundred rounds. While they may start from the same rough forgings, this is where receiver similarity ends as machining and heat treatment are vastly different in order to cope with rifle pressures. Here's a pic from the receiver of a FN-Browning B25 shotgun (L), next to the one from a FN-Browning CCS25 o/u rifle (R) :

It's obvious that the rifle receiver is reinforced by having thicker walls and no cirdular cutout at the bottom. There's no such thing as a quality AND not expensive double rifle...

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: André]
      #51232 - 03/03/06 05:23 AM

Andre'

Colorado and I are working on a project that we will reveal to the world shortly. Be prepared to be amazed.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: André]
      #51242 - 03/03/06 06:53 AM

André

The Double rifles built over here on English SxS Shotgun actions have generally
been BP or Nitro for Black / Light Nitro cartridges. I know of a couple of
Guns as well.

The Ruger Red Label O/U was used many years ago by a gunsmith to build
a 375 Fl Magnum and a 500 Nitro Express.

I don't know any of the SxS ones that have shot loose so maye it depends
on how they are built.

500 Nitro

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: André]
      #51257 - 03/03/06 09:27 AM

Andre,
Isn't the action on the left a 12 g and the one on the right much smaller like similar to a 20g?
I wonder how their 20g shotgun frame compares to their double rifle frame regarding wall thickness.

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: 4seventy]
      #51260 - 03/03/06 10:23 AM

I'd like to see the same size action as well. I'm not convinced there would be that much difference.

I do know that from correspondence I had with Merkel about the 70's vintage Model 8 shotgun that they were in fact identicle actions. When i asked about any difference in heat treating I was told that there isn't any because it was simpler to get all the actions hardened the same. I didn't ask about their current actions and if this is still the case however.

I also know that I had 2 Sauers checked. One rifle one shotgun and they run same rockwell hardness and the actions dimensions are identicle.

BB

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: banzaibird]
      #51261 - 03/03/06 10:26 AM

Oops, the Sauer mentioned above is not a double rifle but a cape gun. Just for clarification.

BB

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: André]
      #51262 - 03/03/06 10:33 AM


I for one would not use a 20ga action for a rifle. However pressure is pressure and if the pressure per square inch for the rifle cartridge intended falls below the pressure per square inch of the origin proff loades of the gun then in theory one should be all right using the action.
The gun MUST be reproofed at around 30% higher pressure than the recomended loading for the cartridge!!!! If the action does not have origional proof marks which can be used to determine the origional proff pressure then leave it alone. As for shotgun actions being OK for rifles, only for low pressure cartridges 44K P.S.I. or less, (C.U.P. is not the same) for the most part only the best actions will meet the strength requirements and good doubles are not cheep. There is a guy up here who will build you a double 45/70 on a Savage 311 action. He sleeves the barrels and ends up with a 15 or 16 pound club!!! I also think he is asking for a law suit and needs a shrink. Cheep actions and glued in barrel liners is a good way to get killed or kill some one else. If you want to build a double rifle on a shotgun action but it is not going to be cheep if you want to do it right and be safe!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: Judson]
      #51286 - 03/03/06 01:21 PM

In reply to:

I for one would not use a 20ga action for a rifle.


Yeah, there are some 20's which would not be suitable but remember that Winchester made quite a few rifles in the early 80's on their 101 20 gauge O/U frame and these have stood up well regarding pressure.

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André
.333 member


Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Brussels (Belgium)
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: 4seventy]
      #51336 - 03/03/06 11:58 PM

In my pic,the action on the L is indeed from a 12 ga shotgun, while the rifle receiver on the R is 20 ga sized. 20 ga shotgun receivers have also thinner walls and the bottom cutout. If I remember well, the much cheaper Win 101 o/u rifles were made by Browning.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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doublegunfan
.275 member


Reged: 26/04/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Brazil
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: Judson]
      #51338 - 04/03/06 12:14 AM

In reply to:

I for one would not use a 20ga action for a rifle



Judson,

For that very reason I selected a good quality 12 ga frame for my DR, and I had no issues so far. I think that a 20ga would be fine for smaller calibre guns, but I feel more confident with a 12 ga frame.

One more thing that I noticed when looking at the pictures, it seems to me that both guns have integral striker pins. I thought all double rifles had floting strikers that act as a safety valve. Is that correct?

Fred

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André
.333 member


Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Brussels (Belgium)
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: doublegunfan]
      #51349 - 04/03/06 02:20 AM

They're floating pins in both cases (my pic shows them in fired position, after taking the guns apart. I drop the hammers on dummies before storing them in the safe). About gas escape control, my double rifle has 2 hollow screws on the right side of the reveiver. They're connected to the firing pin channels to divert gas away from the shooter'd face, in case of a ruptured primer or case. These gas-screws don't deface the looks of the rifle as they're covered up in the engraving and about invisible.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: doublegunfan]
      #51352 - 04/03/06 02:49 AM

Well actually 20 gauge has a higher average max pressure than a 12 gauge (except 3 1/2"). Granted due to the smaller case head size the 20 doesn't quite give the same thrust on the action as the 12 gauge but it isn't too large a difference. Thus the only real difference in using a 20 gauge sized action comes to chamber wall thickness. Again an area where making your own monoblocks really works out because you can minimize the monoblock wall thicknesses and really give more wall thickness to the barrel itself. The other problem with making the larger calibers on the 20 gauge frame is weight and weight distribution. I've been workign real hard on this on the last couple and by far it is the hardest thing to do properly. I'm trying to do it all with out adding any weight anywhere.

BB

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: bonanza]
      #51399 - 04/03/06 08:37 AM

How about an e-mail on the project??? pullleeeeeezzzee!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: doublegunfan]
      #51404 - 04/03/06 09:51 AM

Some double rifles have floating firing pins and some do not. When properly set up floating pins can work as a pressure relief valve in the event of a blown primer. On a double other then one chambered for a low intensity cartridge I would prefer floating pins. One big pluss to the floating pins and a good part of the reason they were and still are used is the ease of replacing a broken pin.
Dogs toothed strikers, or tumblers,(where the firing pin is part of the hammer)can not be replaced in the field unless you bring the tools needed to take the action or locks down with you. Dogs toothed strikers do work for gas control on a box lock though not as well as the floating pins do. Gas blowing past the striker is directed down into the action and forward however this could mean a blown stock.
If you want to think of some thing scary think of what would happen with external hammers if you blow a primer, shooting glasses might help a bit. This is where a well designed floating pin comes totally into its own. If done right when a primer is blown the pin will be blown to the rear sealing off the firing pin hole from escaping gas much as a valve in a car engine when it closes. If you look at many double external hammer shot guns you will find the pins are not set up this way and in many cheep guns retained by only a small screw. Blow a primer here and you could end up with a firing pin bouncing around in your head,OUCH!!!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Hold high at 100Yards [Re: banzaibird]
      #51408 - 04/03/06 10:40 AM

How do you do it?

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle on a shotgun receiver ?!? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #51412 - 04/03/06 11:00 AM

The BSS was what Browning called them. They were made by Miroku of Japan. It is the same action as the Miroku 500. However the Browning had a single trigger and ejectors and the 500 has double trigger and extractors.

Searcy apparently added a third fastner to the action. Though I've never seen one in person, thus no pics from me but I'd like to see some as well if you get any.

BB

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