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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
patch material failure above 1500fps
      #50929 - 27/02/06 02:35 AM

My patch material is failing at high velocity's anybody have some wonder material that will work above 1500FPS.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50934 - 27/02/06 05:06 AM

What is the alloy you're casting the balls with?
Have you thought of simply going with a harder ball?

Daryl's noted denim, and rather thick denim at that.
There's a thread here somewhere here where he discusses his experiences with patching materials in his fourteen bore single barrel rifle.
He's getting considerably higher velocities then 1500fps in that gun with no patch problems.

I'm sure he'll chime in.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50936 - 27/02/06 05:24 AM


Try Teflon Tape - I see my mates who have BP DR's use
a roll of White Teflon Tape all the time.

500 Nitro

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: tinker]
      #50954 - 27/02/06 01:27 PM

I can get well above 1850 without burning because I use shotgun wad bases. However the riflings are cutting the patch material and once that happens all spin is lost and I get flyers...and I mean flyers!!!

I did however find my good patch material that will take about 1600 FPS with a failure every five shots or so. I made some, what I call, baby snort, a mixture of 1 part Murphys oil soap and 1 part Olive oil mixed. Works well and keeps the bore fairly clean.


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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50985 - 28/02/06 01:20 AM

I found the NEI site and I like the 835 grain cotton spool. Question is what diameter to get. .715 or .725 or .732? I want it to easy loading but still grip tight enough so as not to slip on he riflings.


They have an 1100 grain moster slug, which is a bit of an over kill I think. Although I know the gun can take it as I tried a double ball load yesterday (1100 grains of projectile) without and hint of trouble. THis was on top of 140 grains triple 7 or about 155 grain BP.

Kicked like a bear though.

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #51093 - 01/03/06 12:08 PM

Most patch cutting happens at the muzzles, especially when trying to use heavier cloth to withstand the higher pressures and velocities.
: Denim maintained integrity right to 1,800 fps in my .69. That took 330gr.2F, BTW. At 200gr. and 1,700fps, the same combination I used for 165gr. still worked - ball .006" under bore size, and a .020" patch. My rifling twist was 66", and yet didn't strip or burn patches.
: Measure your groove dia. Measure your ball dia. Subtract the ball size from the bore size and divide by 2. That is the thinnest patch thickness that might work with pure lead balls and 3 dram (82gr.)loads. Increasing patch thickness to about a .005" compression per side (or more) may be necessary for work for heavier charges. My rifle did just fine with .005 compression per side, .010" total.
: The heavier the charge, the higher the pressure and the tighter must be the patch. Polishing the crown into a smoother radius or slight cone shape at the muzzles will help you to load a tight enough combination.
: Slugs must be .001" to .002" larger than the bore size so they centre and are held by the rifling. Undersize bulets are strickly a NO/NO. Even at that, firing one barrel will likely move the other forward, which is a VERY dangerous situation. Please use only round balls due to this problem.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #55276 - 20/04/06 05:08 AM

If you read much of the writings of the hunters. Baker for example, you will find that they did not greatly care for the bullets in MLs. As already pointed out they are not noted for staying where they are seated either.
If you are cutting patches it could be at the muzzle as Daryl suggested or you could have a wire edge on one or more lands. If you run a very tight patch up and down the bore it might give a clue. Also starting a ball on strip of patching large enough to grip then pulling it out again should show any problems with the crown.
A good scrubbing with 0000 steel wool should remove any wire edges or burrs from the bore this if this is the problem.
I generally use a cloth patch with the stell wool over it making it as tight as feasible.

Dan

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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #55277 - 20/04/06 05:35 AM

It is impossible to push a bare lead bullet the length of the bore and then have it "grip the rifling". Its just not going to happen to any significant extent. Simple inerita will move them if the gun in bumped at the muzzle. Yeah, I tested this 25 years ago with Maxi Bullets. Recoil in a double rifle is far more severe. If the fit is loose enough they will move simply from the gun being carried muzzle down.
It has been repeatedly shown that recoil is increased and killing power is reduced in big bore round ball guns when a conical is used. You also need a fast twist to stabilise an elongated slug. I think the twist for your rifle is about 75". Far too slow for any solid base bullet. With a slow twist and a pointed bullet such as the 58 cal minie ball (72 twist was the US Army standard) the bullets seldom follow a straight path when striking anything.This has been noted by military doctors of the time and hunters using them on animals. Once the twist is significantly increased they will travel closer to line of sight. Thus is is possible to shoot an animal with a bullet with marginal stability and have it turn 45-to 90 degrees and miss the animals vitals all together.
If you take the time, smooth the bore, check the crown and try different powders and especially different patches, I beleive you will find a combination that will work as it should. I don't beleive conicals are the answer no matter what you may read.
I might also point out that at +- 1500 fps a hardened roundball of this caliber will completely penetrate a Indian Elephants head from side to side. This based on information in Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles". His heavy loads for the 14 bore (15ga ball) would do this and by using his tested trajectories he was getting about 1600fps.

Dan

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: Dphariss]
      #55344 - 21/04/06 01:20 AM

I tried a purpose designed slug for the Kodiak 12 bore and it failed miserably. I am strictly a RB shooter in the doubles and big bores now. As far as the patches, it is the material that is failing, as one type holds up and another gives out. Also a lube mixture of Olive oil and Murphys Oil Soap whipped in a 50/50 seems to have solved a lot of the problems. I also use a 12ga shotgun wad base (cut off the wad) over the powder, then the patched ball and my lube mixture. This has allowed me to shoot up to 200grns BP without cutting (much). I've lapped the barrels as well and this helped some. Triple 7 shoots the best, then BP.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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Eric
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Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 45
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #82531 - 16/07/07 01:24 PM

I have two .62 cal. roundball rifles that can be hard on patches when loaded up for elk hunting and solved the problem by punching out a wad from the papermache cartons eggs come in. Seated over the powder with the patched .610 ball lubed with bearoil (or any of the good commercial lubes) has given me no burnouts or torn patches. Used this last year to take a very nice elk with 85.0grs of Swiss 2ffg. Had a nice shot at 45 yards that took the top of the heart and lungs, penetrated completely the off shoulder and was recovered under the skin. The bull never took a step and after about 5 to 8 seconds just collapsed. Tried to raise his head and shortly thereafter twitched his hind leg and died. The great thing was I called in three bulls and as they all were 6X6 and same body configuration, Between 35 and 50 yards, I just took the one that presented me with the best shot. This was a reproduction of the 1829 Purdy caplock photographed in McIntosh's "the big-bore rifle". It only weighs seven and a half pounds so too heavy of a load recoils plenty much. At 85grs the accuracy is excellent and seems to be enough for big bodied elk. My flintlock early Hawkin fullstock also shoots very nicely with 90 to 95grs of Swiss 2ffg and the papermache wad between the powder and patched roundball. It seems to work for me, give it a try.

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: Eric]
      #82537 - 16/07/07 04:01 PM

BlainSmipy,
Tell me about the rifle barrel, and the patch material you are using.
Maybe I can help

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: patch material failure above 1500fps [Re: szihn]
      #82563 - 17/07/07 02:29 AM

Colorado - I use mostly Denim. It is avaiable from Yard Goods (sewing supply) stores in thicknesss from about .008" to .035" in thickness and mostly everything in between.
: One must take calipers or michrometer to the store when buying it. Make sure it is 100% cotton. I find denim the best as it's locked stitch seems to hold more lube and is stronger than the compercial ticking I tried.
: We've been shooting denim for 35 years and more and find it still is the best.
: It maintains it's integrity up to over 15,000 psi and 2,300fps, as proven in the small bores up to .45 calibre. This is relevent as pressure is what destroys the patch, not velocity. However in the small bores, you get both higher pressure and much higher veocities as well. Your 12 probably never gets over about 7,500 to 8,000 psi, even if used with 200gr. charges. This, of course, is provinding you aren't cutting the patch at the muzzle when loading.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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