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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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DarylS
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.50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever
      #49426 - 07/02/06 06:24 PM

For those interested in this round's ballistics, the following listings came from 2 sources of data for the noted rifle, ie: Hodgdon 2004 Manual and Big Bore Rifles and Ctgs. by Wolf Publishing.
: 435gr. Lead FN at 2,089fps for 4,215 ft. lbs.
: 450gr. Barnes FN at 1,940fps for 3,974 ft. lbs.
: 485gr, LTB FN at 2,009fps for 4,341ft. lbs.
: 525gr. Lyman FN at 1,852fps for 3,995ft. lbs.
: 600gr. A-Square at 1,739fps, for 4,032ft. lbs.
: Pretty good showing for a lever gun with a 2.1" case.
: My own .50 Alaskan, made up on a Remington Rolling block, modern Italian action with a McGowen 24" twist barrel was used mostly with BP loads and some few smokeless heavy loads comparable to the 450gr. listed. This 28" #5 barrel, with both smokeless and Black Powder loads, shot into 1 1/2" at both 100 and 200 meters using a tang sight and with Sheard gold bead front sight. Good accuracy with .50 cal. punch.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bonanza
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Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: DarylS]
      #49444 - 08/02/06 01:08 AM

What sort of sectional density are you getting.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27508
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Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: bonanza]
      #49464 - 08/02/06 04:25 AM

Sectional Density A bullet's weight in pounds, divided by it's squared diameter in inches.
: Well there's enough to exit an almost all shots on Moose or bear, big or small.
: I really don't understand your post's reaoning?
: A 570gr. .510" bullet, for instance has a SD of .335.
: Even a 450gr.Cast bullet has the necessary SD (approx. .270) to exit on Moose or most bears from about any angle.
: Indeed, Horold Johnson developed this round for use on the large coastal grizzlys (brown bears) found in his guiding territory in Alaska. He used 450gr. slugs and couldn't keep on inside a big bear, not matter where shot. They were cut-off .5 BMG bullets, inverted so the base was uppermost. This left a truncated cone bullet that epenetrated as a solid, but due to the cupped nose, created exceptional wound channels. From the .450 Alaskan to the .50 Alaskan, according to Harold, was a big jump in apparent and visual effectiveness.
: If there is sufficient Section Density to achieve the necessary or desired penetration, the actual # is irrevelent. This means I had a short-form easily used formula, but cannot find it.
: Or - did you mean SD as in Standard Deviation of loads. In that respect, I got SD's in the low teens with straigth black powder, SD's in the high 20's with Pyrodex which shot poorly, an SD's in the high teens with smokeless loads using H4895 and Varget.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (08/02/06 04:28 AM)

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bonanza
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Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: DarylS]
      #49469 - 08/02/06 05:14 AM

The English have a rule of thumb section density of .333, ME 4000 Lbs+ and .40 cal+ (.375 H&H exception) for African dangerous game. The .50 Alaskan certainly meets two of these and I was curious if any of the bullets meet the SD minimum.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27508
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: bonanza]
      #49542 - 09/02/06 02:46 AM

If a 570 gr. bullet has a SD of .335, what does a 600gr. bullet have? Sectional density varies only with diameter and weight. lenth or composition have nothing to do with that number.
: At over 4,000fpe with a 600gr. bullet,(not my choice) as I would prefer a 550gr. at 1,900fps, again, over 4,000fpe, but a SD of around 325, I suppose, to a 500gr.SD perhasp .300? at around 2,000fps, again, well over 4,000fpe. the 500gr. would have roughly the same SD as a 300gr. .375, which seems to work OK as long as the bullet is up to the task.
: Of a proper construction, a 500gr. .50 would have much more actual impact and killing power within normal heavy game killing ranges than any .375 load. YOu just can't compare a descent .50 with a small bore rifle, and compared, the .375 is small.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BigBores
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Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: DarylS]
      #50102 - 16/02/06 01:57 PM

I come up with a sectional density of .313 for a 570gr. .510 bullet.
To achieve .333 you need a 606gr. .510 bullet.

Can someone check these and verify them?

--------------------
Glenn R

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500grains
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: BigBores]
      #50108 - 16/02/06 03:24 PM

I think a SD of .300 is fine.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: BigBores]
      #50146 - 17/02/06 02:16 AM

According to Barnes manual, their 570gr., 50cal bullet for the Nitro Express has a SD of 335. It matters not if it is hollowpointed or round nose, the SD remains the same & comes from the same formula - mass and calibre. Their listeing for all .375" and 6.4mm bullets are correct, so I don't see why the .50's would be in error.
: Did you use .510 as the calibre?
: The BC is the one that changes with bullet shape.
: BTW - in a .50 ctg. of enough velocity, even a 450gr.solid bullet would have sufficient penetration to make the off side of an elephant's brain. My .69 calibre muzzleloading rifle does, with an alloy round ball propelled by 165gr. 2F at 1,550fps., Samual Baker, a man of immense experience, said it did. I don't really see a need for a 600gr. bullet in the .50. The .476 Nitro, almost .50 cal uses a 520gr. With a .476Nitro Elmer Keith went his entire safari using only the right barrel - or was it the left. He shot a couple elephants, cape buff and rhino with the rifle - all single shot kills, using solids every time. I expect the suggested formula may be necessary if you are lacking in bullet diameter, with say, a .450/400. There, the energy level and SD are vital.
: As such, the .50 ALaskan isn't an African ctg.,however, loaded for bear, as Harold Johnson did, it would probably make a surprising account for itself, if used there. Complete penetration, and exit from lengthwise shots on coastal Brown bears, might have enough penetration for most game found on the big continent. He used 450gr. cup-point solids.
: I don't remember for formula off-hand and couln't find it - so would you post it please?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (17/02/06 02:18 AM)

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: bonanza]
      #50148 - 17/02/06 03:06 AM

Nice.

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BigBores
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Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: DarylS]
      #50173 - 17/02/06 01:36 PM

Daryl_S,
Try the math:
(570/7000)/(.510²)

My calc says .313.

Is that the correct formula?
(bullet weight in pounds)/(bullet diameter²)

Sorry, I don't trust everything I read. I must prove it to myself.


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Glenn R

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: BigBores]
      #50202 - 18/02/06 02:18 AM

BigBores - you're right - .313. I checked a few others in different calibres and they were spot-on. Obviously, they've made a misprint or typo on the 570gr. Oh well. It matters not. Even a 500gr. solid in .50 cal. will give more than enough penetration in any hunting situation - as has been proven.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27508
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .50 Alaskan model 71 Winchester Lever [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50211 - 18/02/06 04:29 AM

Colorado - your 12 would do just fine. One has a difficult time realizing just what that 'type' power is like, until one shoots these guns themselves.
: Years ago, I chopped the barrels on an old "Fluid Steel" double shotgun I aquired for $75.00. I chopped the barrels at 24" & worked on developing loads for it using round balls, both hard and soft. I developed loads right up to the max ctg. 12 bore load of a RB with 191gr.2F, and chrono'd that one at just over 1,550fps from it's short 24" bls.
: I inlet a sight in the middle rib, and then regulated the loads to print to the sights. I even mounted a scope to eliminate any miss-sighting on my part. I found that not only did the light charge of 150gr. shoot to the sights, but so did the heavy load and most of the smokeless duplication loads I tried.
: When matching the BP velocities in smokeless, I found SR4756 to work beautifully, giving a requisite dup1ication load of 1,550fps with the 545gr. RB & at a greatly reduced recoil compared to the black powder loads. It was the best case senario I could hope for. With the smokeless loads, it kicked no more than a 1-1/2oz short magnum shot loads, yet pressure signs showed les overall presure than even the BP loads.
: Out to 50yds. it was deadly accurate, like a rifle, throwing both barrels together and grouping pretty much parallel for 4" groups. At 100yds. I could consistantly hit a 12" plate, standing, lefts and rights consecutively and man, did it ever bounce that plate, up, down, back and forth, sideways and back again. The plate was a full 2-1/2" thick & weighed about 50lbs.
: At the range one day, a fellow was shooting his brand new, "super powerful"(his words) 7mm mag, developing at least 800 more FPE than my 12 bore, yet his 175gr. bullets barely moved the plate back and forth. He was quite confused when my next shot, visibly impacting in the plate's middle, broke the heavy chain holding it up & slammed the plate to the ground. Of course, he knew little about momentum, a feature much neglected in modern ballistics equations.
: I could never figure out how something developing 3,500FPE(or more), would barely move a 50 lb. plate, yet a .68" RB from a front-stuffer at only 1,300fps, would make it bounce. BTW- that's only 1,800FPE.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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