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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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BlainSmipy
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FFFg didn't shoot for beans! *DELETED*
      #48921 - 02/02/06 12:47 PM

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bonanza
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #48936 - 02/02/06 01:48 PM

That is 3243 Ft/Lbs of muzzle energy.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49201 - 05/02/06 08:12 AM

In Lyman's test on a 2nd Pattern Bess, they achieve higher velocities from 2F and 3F, however the 3F created much higher pressures. I assume this same phenominum might be happening with the 3F Pyrodex. The 'extra' pressure may be causing the crossing. I suspect 120gr. 3F Pyro is developing more pressure than your 180gr. charge of 2F. I use 2F BP in guns over .45 cal. and 2F or 1F in all ctg. guns. 3F has never shot as accurately. 1F gives the best accuracy, normally.
: I've used 1F in a .50x3-1/4" but the velocities were inferior to the same charge of 2F. I am talking of real BP here, not the replacements. In the .50 ctg. rifle, 140gr. charge of 3F ruptured the primer due to excessive pressure. W.W.Greener did much the same with a .450 BP Express with 'fine' rifle powder except the gun was ruined. This was only a 120gr. charge with 340gr. bullets. Do not take BP pressures for granted. If 140gr.2F delievers 28,000 PSI with a 550gr. bullet, switching powder granulation to finer grade will definitey raise pressure to unsafe levels. Makes me question the safety all the 150gr. charges I hear of in the modern rifles that load from the muzzle- in smaller dia barrels.
: I've never found Pyrodex to shoot as accurately as BP, even though Pyrodex is much cleaner burning.
: SingleF GOEX BP might give good results in the double rifle. You'll just have to try it. I expect if the barrel length is long enough, 1F might give higher velcoities than the smaller granulations.(as in a 42 to 46" Bess barrel)
: If you have the old BP handbook by Lyman, check pressure levels of .50, .54 and .58 cal rifles at a given velocity. You will see a co-relating pressure level to achieve these velocities. This is a good rule of thumb. For example, each calibre developes about the same pressure for (example)1,700fps, regardless of it's bore size with the expection that the larger the bore, the pressure developed at that velocity is slightly less than the smaller bores (given the same BP granulation). I am referring to round balls here.


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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #49259 - 06/02/06 02:51 AM

Post deleted by colorado

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DarylSModerator
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49261 - 06/02/06 04:22 AM

4" separation is really nothing - if you are speaking of 4" between the centres of the groups. Since a proper double, regulates parallel, not into the same group, this spread is only about 1-3/4"(if between group centres. I'd expect that 160gr. might shoot parallel which would be perfect.
: I'm sure the Swiss BP will work well, as it's supposed to give the same velocities as English powder of the mid to late 1800's. It isn't moist burning though, but will give approximately 20% greater velocities and pressure than normal GOEX BP gives. This should allow dropping the charge (and recoil) but maintaining the same ballistics as before.
: Imagine getting the same ballistics from 140gr. as with 180gr. THAT would be a nice occurance.


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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (06/02/06 06:18 AM)

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BlainSmipy
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #49345 - 07/02/06 04:55 AM

Post deleted by colorado

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DarylSModerator
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49466 - 08/02/06 04:43 AM

I wound not worry about fpe - it has little or nothing to do with killing potential.
: Although a ML will deliver less fps with round or conical than a ctg. gun, even though identical charges are used, rest assured that any load of 150gr. to 200gr. is OK for most African game. A small bore rifle seems to require high numbers, as in 4,000fpr, or 5,000fpe to be effective on the large beasts of chase, at least that's what modern preferred rounds that are popular, provide.
: The ctg. 12 bore had 2 loadings. a 'light' charge, of 150gr.(5.5 drams) and a heavy charge of 192gr.(7 drams). These were charges loaded with round ball, for use on the continent.
: With fpe, even a small amound of extra velocity shows a large increase in the numbers, yet ther is no actual difference on the game animal. This-too, should show the value of these numbers - as in Nil. On the other hand, we all like large numbers, and use them for our higher velocity rounds, like the .458 RR Alaskan. Numbers above 5,000 are special, but in actuality, mean little. How can a 500 pound animal be hit with 5,000 pounds of anything, and stay on it's feet or inside it's hide? That would be like a 200lb. man being hit by a 2,000 pound object - would he stay on his feet? doubtful - even a 50lb. to 100lb. object in the chest would probably topple him.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #49499 - 08/02/06 10:11 AM

Post deleted by colorado

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You horde gold, I horde lead.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49541 - 09/02/06 02:33 AM

I know there are those who think in terms that modern rifles are the only ones that possess power. They need to fire the world's most powerful rifle, a 4 bore, to see their error.
: Fransis Selous used the big Nitro's and also stated the 4 bore was by far the most powerful. It's viscous recoil was it's downfall. For every action, etc, etc.
: You are correct in that the PH will have the 'big gun' as that is his job. Your job will be to put a .375, or whatever you are using, in the right place so he doens't have to shoot at all. His job is to fix it if you fail your job.
: Were I to go to Africa, it would probably be with my present little wildcat .375 or a .375H&H - or maybe a .50 Alaskan on a model 71.
: Those numbers ie: FPE, are meaningless & I've given enough expamples to show that. It is unfortunate that people like Roy Weatherby so expounded of unrealistic killing power attached to high fpe numbers, that many people cling to them as if they were the holy grail of killing power.
: I realized, due to the world-wide use of fpe, many governments use a certain level of fpe as a limiting factor in firearms.
: The .50/90 will certainly make a powerful hunting rifle, with BP or smokeless. It was said that from 300 to 600yds was it's max range for buffalo. As the normal loading was a 473gr. pointed slug, that speaks quite well for the .50. We know for at any range, even point blank, and are dismal failures when it comes to buffalo, as it seems to take a big bullet to kill them even remotely close to the impact location. We've seen this time and time again, right here in B.C. with WILD buffalo, not penned ones. The same bison drop within several steps of impact, when shot with a lowly .61 calibre muzzleloading round ball travelling 1,200fps at impact. That's a 320gr. round ball, doing perhaps 1,200fps or less at impact - about like a heavy .44 mag handgun load, but .61 calibre. Yet a the same shot though the lungs from a .300 Mag with almost 4,000 fpe makes it dash 500 to 1,000yards, and then stand there for 15 minutes before bleeding out. Somehow, FPE just doesn't explain what's going on.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #49546 - 09/02/06 04:21 AM

Post deleted by colorado

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DarylSModerator
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49547 - 09/02/06 04:47 AM

Good questions. My buddy Keith's .75, with a .735RB weighing almost 600gr., dropped perhaps 90% of it's moose in their tracks, yet always exited until the last 2 shot with it with much reduced loads. They too dropped in their tracks or perhaps took a step. The shuddering and staggering of the beast is really something to see - and Hear. The big balls smack pretty hard, sounding kinda like smacking a rug with a broom - a real whack or whock sound. If bone is struck, you can actually hear a 'crack" after the impact sound. My .69cal. 480gr. balls never exited, as the off shoulder always seem to get in the way, stopping the ball under the hide. I don't know if they'd exit on a true broadside shot or not. I doubt it, but with the .75, Keith dropped to 120gr. just to keep a ball inside. His normal 200gr. charge exited every time, from many angles. The moose that went up to 50yds after being hit, were ones already wounded by his friends with TC maxiball slugs from their 'stainless' "Hawkens". Bloody Hell.
: Anyway, with the big balls exiting, I am certain the thought of dumping energy is a fallacy, just as the fpe #'s seem to be.
; The .69 calibre ball, started at 1,550fps, impacting at some 90yd. to 100yards, made 3" to 5" round holes through the lungs which seemed to bleed out instantly. I assume the shock wave is what make the large holes as the ball rarely expanded to more than 7/8" and the WW balls expanded not at all, yet there were the holes in the lungs, 3" for WW balls and 5" for pure lead ones.
: Shoulders had no bloodshot meat of course and we lost only a handfull of bloody meat from the shoulder that might spoil is hung for a week in mild weather, so it was cut out.
; The term I used should have been pole-ax and in dropped at the shot, or stook, side sort of caving in - it's something to see for sure. Even a .54 RB, which many think is a big ball, will make a moose dash off as if not struck, even with it's much higher impact velocities than the bigger balls. I can see why Forsyth preferred the .14 bore and above, with the .69 being his favourite. It has enough power for the beasts of chase and the trajectory seems to be the most favourable as well (this is important) "with loads that are easily shot from the shoulder without excessive recoil".
: I should note that holes torugh meat are about bore size without destroying the tissue around the hole. "Eat right down to the hole", as Elmer Keith used to say of his large bore rifles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #49578 - 09/02/06 09:51 AM

Post deleted by colorado

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You horde gold, I horde lead.

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Dphariss
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P-dex and 777 vs BP [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #55425 - 22/04/06 02:29 AM

Neither of these propellants have anything in common with BP other than they can be used in ML firearms.
BP has the ability to upset undersized bullets, SFAIK the various replicas will not, at least not very well. They accelerate the projectile differently as a result.

For the above reasons one cannot conclude that a given load of FFF P-dex will perform or regulate similarly to FFFG BP. In reading Forsythe's book it is interesting to not that he mentions using Halls #5 in his 14 bore. I beleive this would be about like American FFFG.
The downside is that both these replica powders contain high levels of Potassium Perchlorate.

Dan

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JohnTheGreek
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! [Re: DarylS]
      #62085 - 04/09/06 05:27 PM

Colorado,

I agree with you that people who say a 12 bore isn't capable of taking a buffalo are up in the night. HOWEVER, while a BP .72 can do the job, you really just need to read the old time 19th C. hunters' work to see that even they thought it was marginal for the task...and this was in the day when "wounded and lost" simply meant "go find another one" rather than "fork over $3000 and your hunt is over". No, you don't need a NE rifle of any sort and the PH will (theoretically) pull one's ass out of the fire but I really dislike bullets from other people's rifles in animals I am supposed to be hunting....especially if I'm paying big money for the opportunity. Further, I don't really like the idea of my actions potentially placing someone I may have just met on a DG hunt in charge of MY life. As a final point, there are countries in Africa where a PH is NOT necessary for foregners. I believe Cameroon and maybe the C.A.R. maintain "Chasse Libre" areas.
Regarding the regulation of your double, and I am no whiz at this, but I think we need more information. Are the shots still crossing with the switch to 777 but closer to one another? From your posts, it actually sounded like the groups diverged further from their already crossed state by 4". Is this true? You also state that shots are on the same horizontal plane....are they at point of aim or low or high? It might not do you too much good if your groups improve with modification of the load if the rounds then start hitting together 18" above or below the POA.

Daryl,

How are you? Interesting Bison stories! It's definitely a rule that big holes bleed more and FPE doesn't mean nearly so much on a 2200 pound bovid. I shot my first free roaming bull in the Yukon with a .416 Rem and he just stood there, 20 feet away or so, for three shots. Third shot hit the spine and NONE exited. I think we would have been in for a wait for him to die had it not been for the third shot. Just got back from the Yukon again a few months ago. Took another nice bull but just couldn't get close enough to use the 8-bore. B&C bull + 250 yards of NO cover + Big money paid for a hunt = Temporary employment of the guides .338. Maybe next time. Anyway, this bull ran about 30 yards before falling over with four .338's through his lungs. The first shot was a killer but maybe after 5 minutes, a few hundred yards, and allowing the bull to get into a place where recovery would have been a bitch. Not a good plan! Bison are sure an interesting species and I don't think any animal on the North American continent can absorb so much lead...especially if hit marginally.

Best,

John

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DarylSModerator
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Re: FFFg didn't shoot for beans! [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #62110 - 05/09/06 02:12 AM

Colorado, John and Dan - good to see you here. Just got back from a 10 day rendezvous - best in Canada by far, imho, of course.
: I took the 14 bore rifle, (Bitch) and never failed at the 200 and 300 yard gongs (which, of course, weren't part of the competition - oh well). Trouble is, I had trouble with most all of the close range targets, but finally found out what was going on with a 50 yard paper buffalo offhand target. My 4 shot 2 1/2" group was fairly good, except for the 3rd shot which I uncerimoniously, flinchingly dumped into his right front foot. Because my ball lacked the tremendous hydrostatic shock of a .300 Weatherby Magnum, my paper target didn't die instantly from the hoof hit, so I won nothing in that event, a 38/50 deserves hardly a mention - for 4 shots, not bad but for 5???.
: I hadn't thought of this angle before, but Dan is spot-on regarding the phony black powders in respect of the regulation of the rifle. Ball obturation, rate excelleration in the bore and effects on the recoil curve profiles are all mixed in the equation of regulation. Trial and error are just part and parcel of finding what is required - with each powder, each patch, each alloy and each lube - containing thousnads of combination possibilities.
: One must remember or merely keep in your mind that a buffalo lives mostly in the lower third of his body, somewhat like a goat. Shot placement is paramount in quick kills. Small diameter bullets seemingly have little 'visible' effect on him. They are tough. My experience is very limited, but I do have some second hand experience through friends who hunt buffalo every year. Keith's .75 works well, as did a .60 Hawken Taylor make for o'l Sam C. The .375's and .416's work as do .458's in modern stuff. I think if using a modern gun in .375 to .458, I'd try to break the beast down, not try for the lungs as is the custom on edible game.
: To say a 12 bore isn't up to the task, perhaps one merely needs to follow Baker's note on feeding that beast.
: I would think an underfed big bore might be less effective than a properly fed medium bore rifle. I am thinking that a 140gr. charge in a .62 might be much more effective than a 90 gr. charge in a .72. Compared to a 12, the 20 bore is indeed a medium or even small bore. When fed correctly, the 12's and larger are truely impressive. Paper ballistics just don't deliver justice - at least not with the formulae currently being used.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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hawkins 50 [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #62155 - 06/09/06 04:45 AM

Great.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 12 bore regulation [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #62180 - 07/09/06 01:40 AM

Colorado - I think you are correct about the extra recoil surmise on T-7 with the heaviest load you used.
: That double of yours with 150gr. of powder will do just fine for all big game hunting in the US and Canada. the normal 'light' load for the 12 bore ctg. guns for Africa was 150gr. (or maybe 151gr.) My 12 bore 'fluid steel barreled double, liked that load with .69 cal balls and printed them together. The 192gr. charge of GOEX was too heavy, kicked too much, but also seemed to shoot 'centre'.
: The big bores really do provide a "Smashing blow" to the beasts of chase. buddy Keith dropped his single barrel .75's charge to 120gr. just to keep a ball inside a moose. That load didn't hit as hard as the heavier 200gr. charges, but still never failed to 'floor' a big bull.
: The 150gr. charge is plenty and should provide around 1,500fps or perhaps a bit better with T-7.
: My .69 shoots to the sights with both the 140gr. 2F charge and the 165gr. charge that I came to love for moose. The heavier charge merely makes the gun shoot a big flatter, barely raising the POI from the lighter 'heavy' charge.
: At a recent rendezvous, using 165gr. 2F GOEX, I never failed to hit the steel ram at 200 meters, nor a steel plate at 265yards, each time I shot them. While I wouldn't shoot a moose at that range, there was certainly enough "power" to get the job done well. At a more normal range of 100 yards, 'smashing' is the adjective to use, however any range within reason or your and the gun's ability is certainly just fine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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