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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Evaluating a DR
      #48698 - 31/01/06 01:06 PM

I am quite in the dark on how to evaluate a DR when handling it. Can anyone give me a list of things that should be checked on a DR, used or new, and how you go about performing these checks? What specifically are you looking for? How did you guys learn your method? Thanks.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Evaluating a DR [Re: bulldog563]
      #48712 - 31/01/06 02:28 PM

I know for sure there are guys here with more to say and with more experience than I do, but here's what I do as a typical 'handshake' with a double that I'd consider buying.


First thing I'll do is handle it like I was about to shoot it. If it fits and/or isn't too far off being a good fit I continue. I'll peel the forend off and try my best to twist the barrels off the gun while twisting the wrist of the stock in the opposite direction. I do that both ways, back and forth to see if I can see or feel any kind of movement on the pin with the gun locked up. I'll look for any kind of gap between the standing breech of the action and the barrel breeches with the gun locked up. I look to see that the seam where the action flats and the barrel flats are is the same from one side of the gun to the other, and if there is a gap I look and if I have feeler guages handy I test it to see that the gap is paralell and the same all around the joint.
I'll take the barrels off and bang them against the butt of one of my hands to see if I can get the barrels/ribs to make any kind of clanking, clicking, or other noise that'd say there was a loose rib or a crack or what have you.
I'll sight through the bores as well as I can and usually having a fiber optic extention for a light with me I'll light the chambers and bores up and look for any kind of troubles like poorly done lengthened chambers or sleeve jobs. I'll typically try to peel the ribs off with a fingernail.
I sight down the outsides of the barrels, all around both of them looking for bulges where they shouldn't be, on reblacked guns I look for signs of *more* striking in some places than others, and if I find signs of that I look very closely around those areas for signs of upset to the rib joints or lugs/swivels/mounts in the area.
If I can I cast the chambers and slug the bores on the spot. I slug the barrels from both ends. I typically also have with me telescoping guages, adjustable small hole guages, and a micrometer or caliper or both.
I look at the lumps to see if there's been any doctoring there like solder or dovetail or peening jobs, I look at the proofs to see if there's been any re-proofing or repair proofs on the gun anywhere. I look at the muzzles for recessed crowns and at the rib to barrel joints for out-of-character solder work.
On the action I note how far the closing lever throws on lockup. I'll wiggle it to see if it's showing any signs of wobble or wonk. I'll look at the locking lugs as well as I can to try to detect peening or signs of welding. I look at the striker tips, the striker bushings, and the cocking dogs if present, I note to myself if there is or isn't grease where I think there should be grease. I look at where the standing breeches meet the action flats and inspect very closely for any sign of cracking. If it's a hammer gun I'll wiggle the hammers to make sure they're tight on thier spindles, if they wiggle I'll note if it's just loose hammers on spindles or loose tumblers in the locks. I'll try to force the hammers past halfcock position, I'll test the rebounding feature if they're rebounding locks. I'll gently cycle the locks with the hammer in the fingers of one hand and the gun in the other trying to feel for any kind of scrape or grind that shouldn't be there as the locks cycle.
I test the safeties.
I put the gun back together and lock it up, hold it by the barrels and whack my off hand with the stock listening for rattles or any sounds that might say there's a crack or loose fit or gap somewhere.
I inspect the wood for cracks and repairs, with special attention paid in and around the checkering at the wrist -- especially on a gun where there's been pickup work done on that area and no wood refinish elsewhere. You can hide a lot in a checker refresh job. I also look for signs of gun oil in the wood near the head of the stock.
I look at the screws and/or pins to see if there's been unauthorized buggering or incompetent repair of said pins and screws.
If I have them I run snap caps through the gun and see if the ejectors/extractors seem to work as they should. If the gun has cocking indicators, selective ejectors, or a single trigger, I make double darn sure I've worked the thing through whatever possible combinations I can think of to see that all's working right.
If it's a drilling or combination gun and has an automatic flip sight I check that for function. If set triggers are present I test them as well.
If there are sling swivels in the wood or on the barrels I give them hearty tugs to see if they're loose or damaged.

I'll then hand the gun to whoever else is present and ask them to find anything I've missed.




--Tinker




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CFA
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Reged: 17/02/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Austin, Texas
Re: Evaluating a DR [Re: tinker]
      #48948 - 02/02/06 03:56 PM

Bulldog

Tinker makes some very good points but after you try your best to pick it apart and you still like it, send it to a real expert such as JJ at Champlin, to make sure you didn't overlook anything serious. Any reputable seller will give you time for the inspection.

CFA


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armbar
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Reged: 25/05/05
Posts: 201
Loc: So Cal USA
Re: Evaluating a DR [Re: CFA]
      #48955 - 02/02/06 05:34 PM

Tinker, Thank you for the very thoughtful answer. I'm sure this helps alot of us. Armbar.

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Evaluating a DR [Re: tinker]
      #48958 - 02/02/06 05:43 PM

Yes, thanks. That was exactly what I was looking for.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Evaluating a DR [Re: CFA]
      #49091 - 03/02/06 04:20 PM

This is a broad question. Way too many things to look for. Like CFA said, once you're done, you still need a professional gunmaker - there's no way you can cover it all. Still, a prospective buyer can save himself some wasted shipping and evaluation fees if he learns enough to cull the turkeys. Since this question is encountered most often with respect to British and Continental DRs, I'll limit my following remarks to those. You need to evaluate the barrels, action and wood.

When you buy a used DR, you're primarily buying a pair of barrels because the cost of replacing them is a non-starter. They have to be good. Bore condition is paramount and evaluating it is just common sense. A bit of gray in the groove (flame erosion) is common with Cordite rifles because this stuff burned white hot. Still, the rifling should be square cornered from throat to muzzle. If there is significantly more throat erosion in the right barrel than in the left, it can cause problems with regulation. No DR can be properly evaluated without shooting it. If the seller has a problem with this, pass. He's either hiding something, or doesn't know enough about DRs to know any better, and you don't want to buy one from him. Keep in mind that when it comes time to sell it, bores with visible wear will reduce the price, no matter how well it shoots.

The outside of the barrels is just as important as the inside. If you aren't familiar enough with double guns to know what the term "well struck" means, learn. This is important for two reasons - detection of improper refinishing and monolithic bullet damage.

The barrels of the British and the better European DRs are contoured from the rough blanks by highly skilled barrel filers with "striking" (draw) files, hence the terms "struck off" or "struck up". Aim the rifle at a light source with a straight edge next to it, like a window or a light box. Yes, the barrels are swamped from just in front of the chambers, but the surface should otherwise be free of ripples, crests and troughs, etc. A British "best" should be perfect ("well struck") and even a mid-grade boxlock will be very good to perfect, unless it's been diddled with. Refinishing is fine, as long as it's done correctly (polished by hand, to preserve the barrel striking, and rust blued). If you see hills and dales, it's probably been refinished by a hack that used a polishing wheel. This seriously degrades the value of a fine double gun.

I've heard it said that overstressed rifling (rifling imprint on the outside of the barrels), from the use of monolithic bullets, is difficult to see. Once you're used to looking at well struck barrels, it's about as difficult to see as a bright spotlight in a railroad tunnel. Again, aim the rifle at the light and look for spirals on the outside of the barrels. If you see this, pass.

Inspect the action carefully. As Tinker described, the barrels should fit up to the face and table evenly. The major issues you're looking for here are a sprung (bent) or cracked action bar or an off face condition. If the action is sprung, the barrels won't fit up evenly to the face and table. Read the "Off Face" string above. A simple off face condition isn't an automatic "pass", as putting a double gun back on face usually isn't a big deal. However, it IS a warning to look for problems elsewhere indicating that the gun is off face due to abuse, such as excessive loads, as opposed to simple neglect. These jointing issues are primarily a job for your gunmaker.

Inspect the wood for gouges, cracks, oil soaking and poorly executed repairs and/or refinishing. Correct restocking is expensive. As Tinker described, look for looseness at the stock head. Oil soaking of this area softens the wood over time and looseness here is often due to this. If this problem is present, it's hard to tell what you've got until the oil is removed. Sometimes repairs are quite successful, and sometimes restocking is the only option. Be sure to look for proud metal due to excessive sanding during refinishing.

Also, carefully inspect the checkering. This is a pet peeve of mine. I've seen Americans looking at virtually unused pre-war British guns, insisting that the gun was obviously refinished because the stock appeared to have been refinished over worn checkering without bothering to freshen it. Of course, the checkering wasn't worn. The pre-war British guns had flat-top checkering - the diamonds weren't pointed up to begin with. When you see what appears to be a high condition pre-war British DR with pointed-up checkering, it's been redone by a hack.

Like refinishing the metal, there's nothing wrong with a restocked gun, as long as it's done right. On double guns this expensive, good execution is a requirement, but look for proper geometry as well. For example, the comb on British stocks is tapered from the butt to the nose of an unfluted comb. This permits the stock to slide away from the face during recoil and is part of the reason why the British DRs are more pleasant than most others to shoot. Several years ago, I saw a high quality British boxlock DR that had been restocked by a guy who is probably America's most celebrated stockmaker. The execution was as superb as the man's reputation - with razor-sharp checkering, a thick, fluted comb and a thick hand that the original stock didn't come with. It was an abortion. Had I been interested in the rifle, I would have docked my offer for the cost of a restock.

As long as the barrels and action are sound, there's little else that can't be fixed. It's only money.
---------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Evaluating a DR [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #49097 - 03/02/06 06:35 PM

400
Good post!
A lot depends of course on the asking price, regarding evaluation.
If it is a top dollar price a buyer is wise to get it checked out by a pro to make certain that it is what it is claimed to be.
On the other hand if a guy is after a good shooter rather than a good collector rifle, and the price is right, some of the evaluation may be able to be relaxed a tad.
Doubles meant for very regular hunting use in all weathers can be forgiven for being a bit daggy and a bit worn so long as the daggs are mostly cosmetic rather than mechanical, and that the price reflects the condition.
There are some clunkers out there but there are also some good working guns, which may be a little rough around the edges but are still very capable of killing just as well for less money.



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