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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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RHS
.224 member


Reged: 29/07/04
Posts: 3
Loc: USA
458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads
      #47973 - 26/01/06 02:00 AM

I have a preference for the big bores and was taking a careful look at the 350 gr. premiums in the 458WM for PG in an effort to keep this a 1-gun hunt. I only shoot my own handloads. Thought about the 375H&H, but I enjoy the BB's too much to change.

Anyone out there had any experience with the 350's out of this cartridge for PG? Range limitations, etc.?

Thanks!

--------------------
Freedom isn't FREE!!


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: RHS]
      #47976 - 26/01/06 02:21 AM


I have not shot game with 350's in the .458 win mag, but on paper the groups were about 6 inches higher than 500's were. I have shot game with the 400 grain Woodleigh PP and it was excellent. However, I see no reason you could not shoot PG with 500 grain bullets, or even compromise with 450 grain bullets so that you do not need to worry about 2 points of impact.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: RHS]
      #48009 - 26/01/06 05:08 AM

I do think this has merrit. Testing with 350gr. Speer heavy jacketed bullets as well as the 350gr. Barnes HP's in a ctg. of slightly greater capacity than the .458 WM has shown easy 350 yd. max trajectories for PG. The use of a range finder is useful for difficult terrain, but not necessary.
: In my .458 Alaskan M70, the Barnes 350"X", at around 2,500fps muzzle velocity, does just fine on our moose at longish ranges. This particular rifle puts them only 3" higher than the 500's, with 400gr."X" striking inbetween them.
: If 3" high at 100, they are zero'd at 215yd., 3" low at 250 and almost 9" low at 300yds. 350yards puts them 18" low. Aiming at the back-line of larger plains game at 350yards, drops them through the middle of the rib-cage. Needless to say, much practise at many ranges, is requisite.
: The .375 makes a much better, 1-gun battery for Africa, in my humble, lack of that experience, opinion. A well-shaped 300gr. might suffice for all game, being solid and soft as required.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: RHS]
      #48026 - 26/01/06 07:29 AM

The whole thing sounds like kind of a skimpy, unsatisfactory compromise in my opinion.

If you have DG on the menu, 500 gr bullets are the only way to go, and then you'll be restricted, fundamentally, to 100-125 yard shots for EVERTHING, and Kain-tuck windage be dipped. Plus, the vast majority of the animals you'll be hunting would be better reduced to the salt with a lighter rifle that shoots flatter and kicks way less than the 458 does.

The 458 Win. Mag. (and it's ilk) is a specialized rifle in my opinion, not an all-around, workhorse safari rifle. On the one safari where I did indeed take a 458 Win. Mag., I also brought along a 300 Winchester. I used the 458 (500 gr. Trophy-Bonded solids) for three animals, and the 300 Win. Mag. (180 Fail-Safes) for thirty-three. And the truth is, all of the animals I shot with the 300 went down basically on the spot. The 458 wouldn't have killed any of them any deader, and all it would have done was make the 200-250 yd, shots I was sometimes faced with just that much more difficult, and the much heavier recoil would also have made those shots more difficult. It would have been more of a hindrance than a help in every way.

Some guys are under the impression that bullets from "regular" hunting rifles just sort of bounce off or otherwise fail, while a bullet from a big bore is somehow going to hammer everything just straight into the ground and offer some big time set of advantages. Most of the time the reverse is actually true. Believe me, it's worth the extra expense and bother to take a true plainsgame rifle in addition to your 458............

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JoeR
.224 member


Reged: 19/01/04
Posts: 41
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: allenday]
      #48033 - 26/01/06 08:55 AM

Allen, I gotta disagree here as I am fooling around with much the same idea in a 458WM. I'm using 400gr TBBC's, factory Federal ammo which actually have a higher BC and MV than a 400gr TBBC out of my 416 Rigby (again using Federal factory ammo) which makes the 458 a fine longer distance rifle for say, eland. I plan on using 500 gr African Grand Slams on the bigger stuff, so I am hoping to get to dead on at 50 yds with the AGS's and about three inches high at 50 yds with the TBBC's. This would give me a rifle that is within three inches of POA out to about 230yds and still have the better stopping power on buff. The 458 has more energy and a flatter trajectory than the 375H&H using 300 gr bullets when comparing the Federal factory loads. A rifle that shoots as flat as the 416's with a bit of added punch available short range is appealing to me.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: allenday]
      #48043 - 26/01/06 10:24 AM

Allen, I'm in your corner on this one. When you're looking to hunt dangerous game, and even the larger plains game, penetration is paramount. You're not going to get that from a light to medium weight for calibre bullet. The sectional density just isn't there. Allow me to mention 2 recent example I experienced on a Blue Wildebeest and a Burchells Zebra on the same hunt.

I was shooting a Model 70, custom stocked with a beautiful piece of AAA Claro, topped with a Leupold 1.75 X 6 in Talley QD rings and bases, and chambered in 375 Ackley Improved. I was thinking I'd like to have a load that will be flatter than the 300 Grain loadings I usually use, so I went with 250 grain Swift A Frames moving along at @ 2900 fps. On the Wildebeest, I was presented a perfect broadside shot from around 75 yards. My shot hit the Wildebeest in the middle of the shoulder, and he just stood there. I quuickly followed up with another shot, that hit within an inch of the first shot. The critter ran about 100 yards and fell over. There was no blood spoor at all. A post mortem showed that neither bullet exited, but, they did mushroom perfectly and looked just like the ones in the magazine advertisements. Both bullets broke the near shoulder, and only penetrated half way through the off side lung, after penetrating the near side lung. I prefer complete penetration which is more likely to leave a good blood trail if needed.

On the Zebra, I had a shot of around 100 yards, with the animal quartering toward me. I held on the inside of the near shoulder, fired, and the PH and tracker both pronounced it a good hit-he won't go far. We had a slight blood trail for the first 150 yards or so, then it started getting too dark, and it also started to rain. The next day we went back to look for it, and after a couple of hours, we found the stallion still running with the herd. There was a dried blood stain running down the leg to around knee level. I was able to get a quartering away shot into it while it was running, and was lucky enough to clip an artery, and it went down shortly after that. A post mortem showed that my first shot was exactly where I wanted it to be, but for some reason, the bullet turned on the heavy shoulder bone, and followed underneath the skin at a ninety degree angle to the entrance wound before exiting. I was very lucky to have recovered the Zebra. I now use only 300 grain bullets in the Ackley. At 200 yards the difference in drop, compared to the 250 grain bullet is just under two inches. I sight it in 2 inches high at 100 yards, and I'm dead on at 200. I'm certainly no expert when it comes to bullet selection, but what I'm sharing with you is the advise I've received from quite a few African veterans, as well as from several PHs who've seen all types and bullet weights used. As far a brand of Bullet, they're all pretty much in agreement that brand doesn't matter, as long as it's a Barnse, Nosler Partition, Woodleigh, Trophy Bonded, or Swift A Frame. Just my two cents worth.

I had to come back and add this: in my opinion, penetration is a function of bullet construction and weight. If one is missing penetration is impossible.


Edited by mikeh416Rigby (26/01/06 10:52 AM)


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allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #48119 - 27/01/06 02:33 AM

Mike, that last sentence of yours is priceless. Every word of it weighs a pound, at least!

I would also concur with the summation that most of the top premium bullets are very good, and more than up to just about any situation you'll get into. You just need to pick the premium that shoots best out of your rifle and go hunting.......

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: allenday]
      #48140 - 27/01/06 03:57 AM

I'd take the 458wm and the 375H&H. The 458wm for your buff and the 375H&H for the plains game or just in case you had a problem with the 458wm. You have both and traveling with two rifles isn't anymore trouble than with one, imo.

I also like to be carrying an elephant or buff capable rifle when they're around. A soft up the spout and solids below.

JPK


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MagnumHunter
.275 member


Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 63
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: JPK]
      #48442 - 29/01/06 03:17 PM

JPK has it right. Take two. Use the 458 for what it was made for and shoot the 375 on the rest. If something happens to the 458 or you don't have it in your hands at the right moment, use the 375. Leave the light 458s at home for practice.

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markhyoung
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Reged: 31/10/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Cody, WY, USA
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: MagnumHunter]
      #48662 - 31/01/06 09:43 AM

Guys,

First I would like to acknowledge you all for not bashing the 458WM. God! That argument about it should have been made on a longer case really is worn out. Of course it should have been the Lott to start with but that doesn't mean its 500 gr. bullets bounces off big animals. Actually for me the 458WM is about my upper level of recoil tolerance so for me it may be a better round than the Lott for really big game.

Anyway the 458WM works excellent with the 350X. A 350X at 2550fps easily makes the 458WM a 250 yard rifle for all but the heaviest game. I wouldn't use it for plains game and have another load with the 500's for buff or elephant though. First reason I can come up with is that having 2 differnt bullet weights or differently constructed bullets is a recipe for disaster. Maybe other folks can do it but I know in the heat of the moment Murphy will be there and I will have the special leopard load in the chamber when the 45" buff steps out. A premium soft and solid of the same weight would be my only exception.

I really like the 458WM but as others have stated its real purpose is to shoot big stuff at close to moderate ranges. If plains game is to be hunted as well as DG I think anyone would be well advised to put a second but lighter caliber rifle in your luggage and leave the 458 for the big nasties.

Mark

--------------------
Mark H. Young
ADAM CLEMENTS SAFARI TRACKERS INC.
WORLDWIDE BIG GAME, WINGSHOOTING AND PHOTO SAFARIS
www.safaritrackers.com
Office 1-307-587-6372
FAX 1-307-587-3385


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 458WM as 1-gun for PG/Buff w/ 350 & 500 gr. loads [Re: JPK]
      #48668 - 31/01/06 10:17 AM

Given the opportunity, the .458 with a smaller plains-game rifle in .375 would be my choice.
: Since shooting and hunting with .375's, H&H and '06IMP's, albeit in North Amercia, I'd have no trouble with it's use on all African plains game. Overkill on some, and perfect for others.
: If confined to one gun, it would be a .375H&H with premium bullets, of course, instead of the .458. I am quite comfortable with a .458 for quite long range, however the .375 certainly makes for less guess work. I do know that a .375 seems to anchor out larger Moose just a bit faster than the .458 with the same chest cavity hits.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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