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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues
      #46995 - 19/01/06 11:35 AM

How simular are the issues between double muzzleloaders, double BP cartridges, and double cartridge smokeless? Sometimes I'm not sure I should post my double muzzleloader issues on the double forum or the muzzleloader or both or what. In the double forum most of the fellers' are smokeless cartridge shooters (which I also shoot). However, the double muzzleloader shares issues in both all worlds, BP, muzzleloading and two barrels! I guess I'm wondering, should there be a double muzzleloader index/forum only? Were is the best place to post questions/comments in regards to this? I don't know.... Or are the alike enough that I shouldn't worry?

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #47015 - 19/01/06 02:56 PM

The double rifle forum gets more visitors. If you are shooting a double rifle muzzleloader, it doesn't sound too bad a place to post questions.

I find the double muzzleloader issues interesting.





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: NitroX]
      #47033 - 19/01/06 05:23 PM

Indeed-

And one thing to consider with the muzzle loading double rifles is consistency in loading them.
To get any muzzle loading rifle to shoot right it takes a very consistent procedure and 'feel' from load to load in order to get consistent accuracy.

Gets even more important when there are two muzzle loaders side by side in the same stock!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: tinker]
      #47072 - 20/01/06 04:24 AM

Thanks for the responses, I'll continue to post as I have. Seems people read all of the forums anyway like I do, so I could post anywhere and get a good response.

Just as a point of interest, I counted the empty bullet containers, and I've put over 250 rounds through the Kodiak 12 bore in the last 5 weeks. Most at 130 to 160 grains Triple7 FFg. The gun has had no reliability or structure issues thus far. I believe the .72's are built a bit huskier than the 50's (just a guess). I plan to slowly work on up to the 195 grain DG load. Regulation continues to be quite good, and improves with experimentation in patch, lube, wad combinations. Thats why I have to shoot so dang much, for every 10 grns I have to test the PLW combinations to get the best groupings. I then take down the gun (at night), inspect it, and try again.

As soon as we get the A. Hollis up and going I'll do the same with it.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #47083 - 20/01/06 07:47 AM

Try mixing up some of Stumpy's Moose Snot lube. My bro uses it in his 10 bore musket with wonderful results- very clean shooting, with never having to wipe the bore of fouling. For some reason, it works less well in my .45 flinter.
: In a double boiler, melt 2oz chunk of beeswax, and add 8oz. of pure castor oil (mix for RC glow engines by Sig). Once hot, add in 1-1/2 oz. of Murphy's oil soap, and whip it up into a latcher. It will foam somewhat, so use a fairly large container. Once whipped and blended, pour into containers for use. I used plastic bullet boxes and tins with lids for my containers.
: The murphy's is necessary as it blends the Castor and beeswax. otherwise, they won't meld. YOu an adjust the stiffness of this lube, but increasing or decreasing the wax content. As well, a mix of 50/50 Castor and Murphy's well shaken before use, will also make a good lube. Another is 50/50 Murphy's and alcohol.
: One of these will work for you, I'm sure. The straight mixes are, of course, easier to mix up. Some guys use blends of crisco and oils or wax.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Plains99
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Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 225
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Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #47178 - 21/01/06 04:31 AM

Just a comment about my White inline double in .504 caliber. Using 600 grain slip fit conicals and 120 grains of Pyrodex RS we figured we had similar power to a .375 H&H using the Taylor KO theory. I don't recall the exact figures. The first two shots from the gun are as fast as any gun on the market and with practice I could reload both barrels in 30 seconds using premeasured powder tubes I carried in my vest shell holders, loose bullets in my pocket and a musket cap tool. Not bad but you have to hustle to accomplish this... still even an old Nitro cartridge gun will reload faster which translates to more firepower at your disposal. But for the first two shots, my White is as good as any double of similar size there is. I just think it needs to be bigger for dangerous game and a cartridge gun is a better choice.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: Plains99]
      #47230 - 21/01/06 12:13 PM

What did that White inline double rifle cost in US Dollars?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Plains99
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Reged: 10/11/04
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Loc: Dodge City, Kansas, USA
Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: tinker]
      #47368 - 22/01/06 09:30 AM

I gave $1,000 for it but it is a prototype (I traded in a couple of muzzleloaders to get the cash outlay down) and has some cosmetic sins. Doc is working on a .54 and I do not know what the price for that is. Honestly, I don't think they could afford to manufacture them for that price because of the expense of regulating the barrels. However, the thing that I learned with this rifle and if I were to have a custom double manufactured is that I'd insist that the bore diameter be .504 with 1:24" twist rather than most standard .50's if it were a .50. This gun will easily and quickly load .458 Hornady 500 grain Interbonds and 530-grain Powerbelt Dangerous Game Bullets, and .435 grain Buffalo SSB's and it is very forgiving of differing loads. I also am a firm believer in musket cap ignition in an inline rather than 209's because of the time it takes to dig 209's out and replace them. Musket caps are much quicker. But honestly, If I were having a custom dangerous game double made, I'd go with conventional sidelocks, double hammers, and musket cap ignition. Sidelocks are quicker to reload. It is easier to see that the cap is in place. It is easier to clean the nipples. Hammers let you know exactly where you are at in relation to the gun's readiness to fire. The gun would be more compact than all but the drop actions (like T/C Omega). I'd like something like the Pedersoli Kodiak with musket cap ignition, heavier stock or composite stock, synthetic ramrod, and the best heavy duty locks and heavy duty triggers that are made. I'd want the gun to weigh at least 12 pounds and be at the very least .58 caliber... but again with a slightly oversized bore for quick recharging and capable of handling a regular load of at least 200 grains of FFg. I'd think you'd be looking at a minimum of $2,500 for a plain Jane model but it would/could be a very effective dangerous game muzzleloader.

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: Plains99]
      #47630 - 23/01/06 05:21 PM

Joe at muzzleloader emporium is working on just that. He and I have had long conversions, and I convinced him on the value of building a partial or full kit version of a heavy double. The prototype will be a replica of a Holland and Holland 8 bore he has. No dates on anything, as they have not figured out how to glue the barrels together yet.

I agree with you on the heavy duty parts, the Pedersoli locks on the 12 bore needed some work before they could handle anything over 130 grains. I sheared the left lock tumbler twice before I engineered the right sear shape/depth. The heavy recoil would slap the hammer back and slam the hammer back into the sear. Without enough depth and cup the sear pin slips and you get a double or failure. What would be better is a locking pin that would stop the hammer from traveling past the cocking sear. As I approach the magical 195 grain DG load, I'm relearning what the old gunsmith masters found out 160 years ago (such as the lock problem). So far the stock and barrel are holding up fine. I put 50+ painful 165 grn rounds through it today to test the new sear design, it held rock steady. I also was testing the trigger and lock tuning I did to it (I did the work BTW). The locks and triggers are ultra smooth now, which tightened the groups up (less movement when squeezing one off). I might strengthen the stock somehow, if it seems like it needs it. I figure I've put 300 rounds through this gun now, other than the left lock issue it’s held up. Side note I was having a lot of problems with ignition failure so I purchased TEMCO musket nipples however I can not find the caps anywhere locally. So, I decided Saturday to buy some TC Hotshot nipples to try. With these I had NO miss fires or hang fires at all today. They really work. Out of three 20-ball containers worth or shooting not a single miss fire. I didn't even squib any caps. I was using Mag CCI #11, but usually had 1 in 4-miss fires with them and the old nipples.

It was a good day, other than the major headache I gave myself with the heavy loads.

Colorado



--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

Edited by colorado (24/01/06 02:14 AM)

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50093 - 16/02/06 11:03 AM

I just don't know.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50215 - 18/02/06 05:11 AM

I did some tests in the late 80's using Hot-Shot nipples on my .69. With the hot-shots, I found velocity variations almost trippled, to 25fps & over in a 6 shot string. With solid nipples, the shot-to-shot variations remained 10fps or less. On target at 50yards, group sizes also doubled with the hot-shots. I didn't test it at 100yards with the Hot-shots. I discarded them.
: I used the Davis English lock on my rifle, and with solid nipples, it only allowed the caps to expand enough for easy removal with heavy loads. With light, 3 dram charges, I needed to flip the cap off with the back edge of my patch knife. I tested the Hot-shots just for the ease of cap removal. Due to the poorer accuracy, I went back to normal mipples.
: Perhaps your testing will prove more positive. Guns do vary.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Double Muzzleloader vs Nitro Double issues [Re: DarylS]
      #50223 - 18/02/06 06:23 AM

*

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