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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: iwantadouble]
      #46673 - 15/01/06 11:49 AM

A lot of companies have poor setup in dealing with email enquiries. Often the emails just get lost or are not treated as serious. Perhaps the person dealing with email enquiries does not pass them on (?). One reason for this can be the volume of spam and emails. Spam is destroying email communication and even if a spam-filter is used it still is a nuisance.

Not defending a lack of response as detailed here, just possible explanations.

Sometimes the telephone or fax machine works entirely better. Walking in in person too if that is possible.


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Grizzly
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: NitroX]
      #46678 - 15/01/06 12:32 PM

Vig, et al,

I understand what a phone call or personal visit can do. But if you are in the 1920's, do NOT list an e-mail address as a point of contact. It is pretty easy to say "call us". We would all understand that.

Business is business, and if you open a channel for communication, you need to be prepared to deal with it. If you are not, you are not someone who will survive in an ever more competitive environment.

Incidently, my message to G&H was that I was a cash buyer ready to make a deal. If you cannot respond to that kind of message, you do not need to be in business. You can get a high school drop out these days to read and recover e-mail. And one more point. Why would you get a response to one inquiry via e-mail and silence on others that asked a pointed question, like, do you actually have the rifle you list for sale?

I don't buy the too old to adapt deal. If I had sent a letter, does anyone thing they would have responded? My belief is that they got caught behind the 8 ball - they had nice pictures of a rifle they had listed for sale that they did not have in stock. Hence, the response, not available.

I would try smoke signals from Texas as a last resort, but they are probably too young for that. So, I will resort to hand signals of universal recognition.

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vigillinus
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: Grizzly]
      #46682 - 15/01/06 02:22 PM

Griz I like your last line !!!

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: iwantadouble]
      #46692 - 15/01/06 06:08 PM

My personal experience with Westley Richards when I did an article on fine guns for India Today Plus in 1998 was particularly bad. I had written to several of the world's great gunmakers at the time including Holland and Holland, Purdey, Johann Fanzoj, Boss, William Powell, John Dickson, Perugini and Visini, Lebeau Courally etc and everyone sent me material for my piece. Walter Clode of Westley Richards was the only one to send me a reply where he told me that he would not bother with sending any material because India had banned the import of guns by resident Indians. The tone of the letter was offensive and condescending and my piece went through without any mention of his company's guns. Years later, I had revenge of a sort when an Indian businessman in the UK wanted a pair of shotguns made and I managed to steer him in Johan Fanzoj's direction, and away from W-R who had been his initial choice. He saved money, got a set of really nice guns and is very happy with my suggestion.

While W-R undoubtedly make good guns, their top brass have an attitude problem when someone contacts them. Maybe this also extends to customers and maybe it doesn't. I know that it does extend to other dealers in the UK, more than one of whom has told me that they had particularly bad experiences with W-R when they went to buy something from them.

Good hunting!

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JPK
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #46719 - 16/01/06 08:39 AM

The WR's guys in the US have been great to talk to and always ready to answer Questions on the phone.

They When they were short of some ammo I wanted they made a note and told me that when they received it they'd and see if I was still interested. I wrote that off as unlikely to happen. Guess what? I got a call a couple of months later telling me they'd finally gotten the ammo and asking if I still wanted it! Only a hundered dollar or so transaction so it was'nt going to make their day but they sure did follow through.

On G&H, I've never been able to get anything done without talking to Paul Chapman. I've always gotten what I needed done when I talked to him.

JPK

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iwantadouble
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: JPK]
      #46754 - 17/01/06 01:34 AM

This is sort of drifting off the topic, but my dealings with WR were also local (Bozeman, MT) WR, not Birmingham WR. I only used that as an example of the level of importance placed (by a lot of people) on the viability of email.

Communication seems to have a tier of acceptance. First and foremost is in person, followed by the more established means of communicating; letter, telephone, fax, and (now extinct) telegraph. The newest form is going to be the least accepted as sincere, irregardless of the contents stating otherwise.

By the way, the other factor is annoyance. You don't let a ringing telephone go unanswered (unless its someone you do not want to talk to showing up on caller id), but most email accounts must be manually checked and are quitely left running where they are not seen on some distant server. I'm lucky to check mine once a week, unless I know someone is sending me something. The fact that yours were answered rules this out, but if they weren't answered, it could pose a very distinct possiblity as to why.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: iwantadouble]
      #46763 - 17/01/06 03:39 AM

iwantadouble:

Your point is well taken, but you're wrong on one point. The telegraph (the ability to transmit written messages over the wires) isn't extinct. The name has changed, that's all, they just call it e-mail now. This antique technology is grindingly backward and inefficient. A fantastically more efficient method of communication has recently been invented - the ability to send REALTIME VOICE MESSAGES over the same wires - they call it the telephone.


Grizz:

If a dealer is advertising a gun you want, you call. If you're not serious, you e-mail. The dealers understand that distinction perfectly, believe me. You snoozed (sent an e-mail) and lost. You have nothing to complain about. Good grief man, do you call 911 with smoke signals?!!!!
----------------------------------------------------------

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iwantadouble
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #46766 - 17/01/06 03:51 AM

Yes, I realize the modern incarnation of the telegraph is email, but I was using it in its strictest sense, as designed by Joseph Henry and along with Samuel Morse's system for coding and further refinement to the device in the 1830's is a far departure from its current version. But we are treading into the territory of symantics at this point.

I do agree 100% on you statement. If you want it, pick up the phone or get in the car. E-mail is probably only most usefull for spreading of virii to unsuspecting individuals, and advertisement of gender enhancing devices and pills.

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500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: iwantadouble]
      #46769 - 17/01/06 04:17 AM

iwantadouble,

Just a point - I am not going to post on this topic again - I contacted Westley Richards as a journalist writing an article. Their contact details were gioven to me by the British Deputy High Commissioner's office in Chennai, India. It would have been impossible for me to visit Birmingham to ask them for a catalogue.

I have my conclusions based on not just my personal experience but also on the W-R management's press relations policies. What I did in the case of my contact who bought guns from Fanzoj is something that I would happily do again.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

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Grizzly
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #46771 - 17/01/06 04:53 AM

400NE

Comparing e-mail to the telegraph is like comparing a horse-drawn carriage to a car. In the business world, e-mail creates enormous efficiencies.

I also disagree that if I was serious, I would have called. Since I sent an e-mail, that somehow implied that I was not interested. If I was not interested, I would not have contacted them at all.

And of course, calling does not guarantee your call will be returned. And calling often leads to an interminable round of telephone tag.

Any business using the internet for advertising which lists an e-mail address for inquiries seems to be actually inviting those inquiries, and implying that they will respond to them. If you prefer to business by phone, you just say so on your site. You do not list an e-mail address.

For the record, I did receive an e-mail response which contradicted information on their web site. When I attempted to get the reason, there was no more e-mail communication. So it is pretty obvious they do have the capacity to address inquiries via e-mail.

I find that those who are not willing to put something in writing are a group I would rather not conduct business with. There is no real record of a telephone conversation as to what was discussed or promised. The telephone is the bullshitter's final refuge. And when making a large dollar purchase, I take a lot of comfort in someone's written word over a casual phone call.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: Grizzly]
      #46778 - 17/01/06 06:37 AM

Grizz:

If you want to send the same message to 100 people, yeah, e-mail is useful. If you want to communicate with one person, it's stone age. Things get done by talking to people.

I can't understand your complaint. You sent an e-mail about the gun to the CEO, when it should have gone to the sales staff. They re-routed it to the proper person, who replied that the gun in question was unavailable - a full, complete and unambiguous response to your enquiry. They were also kind enough to communicate that they hoped to have another available for DSC. Why should they have presumed that further explanation was needed? Why, indeed, should they have explained further, even when asked?

Send your telegrams if you want, whatever does it for you. While you're doing that, the salesman will be on the phone, selling the gun you want to someone who was serious enough to call.
----------------------------------------------------------





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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Grizzly
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #46786 - 17/01/06 10:17 AM

400NE,

Al I can say is that e-mail is a very effective means of communication. In my experience, it is generally a precursor to a phone call, which can be scheduled by date and time to avoid phone tag and voice mail hell.

We will have to agree to disagree on e-mail. I think it is light years aead of two tin cans with a string between them. And you think it is tin cans without the string. Less filling; tastes great.

I think I laid out what my issue was quite clearly, but here it goes again. They listed a SPECIFIC rifle for sale. When an inquiry was made, they effectively admitted they did not have that rifle to sell (by the way, as of yesterday it was still listed as for sale).

Selling something you do not have is bad. Listing something for sale and telling people there will be a representative sample available for you to buy is worse. In my opinion, by any other name that is bait (showing an outstanding rifle as available for sale) and switch (not having that rifle but trying to direct the customer's attention to something different).

And if you tell the world to e-mail you with inquiries, don't act like ancient man seeing fire for the first time when you get an e-mail.

As for the differences between the phone in Sam Drucker's General Store and my Blackberry , I am certain that a collaboration between the two of us over a couple of cold ones would lead to a new version of communication - the NitroNet! The ultimate "Killer Application".

If you are going to the DSC, give me a call. If you PM me, I'll give you my cell phone number (the cell phone being a reasonable compromise between the telephone and the internet)



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400NitroExpress
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: Grizzly]
      #46792 - 17/01/06 11:49 AM

Grizz:

WTF? So the gun was "unavailable" when you e-mailed. So what? That ususally means it sold, but there are a lot of other possibilities, too. Maybe someone else has it tied up. Maybe there was something wrong with it and they sent it back to Belgium. Sorry, but they don't owe you a more detailed explanation. Your conclusion that "unavailable" means they never had it to begin with and are, therefore, crooks, is irrational, and posting that accusation here is irresponsible.
-----------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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JPK
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #46836 - 18/01/06 01:43 AM

Grizzly,

Since I handled that rifle, I know that they had it and it was for sale. In fact they had two of them, one slightly different than the other as I recall. That other one is no longer on their website. I'm willing to bet that they are awaiting delivery of a couple more. So they are out of stock. But the rifle is their house branded rifle, and who know who the next maker will be, if Thys is totally retired, or even if he is not. Not unlike the English trade where guns with one maker's or retailer's name might have been made by another maker and maybe finished by yet another....

Its been awhile since I handled the particular rifle on their web sight and the one that isn't there anymore too, maybe eighteen months. Who knows when it was sold or whatever. You are reading way too much into the fact that that particular rifle is no longer available. Especially since it is but one example of their house rifle.

As far as customer service, well, they've always been a little weak there, and it has been a pain at times to get hold them (read Paul Chapman here since he is the fellow I prefer dealing with) or to get anything done quickly. But not so weak that I quit dealing with them or too weak for G&H to have been sucsessful in the high end of the business for eighty three years.

Email is a hell of alot less tagible than a guy on the other end of the phone. And a guy on the other end of the phone is a hell of alot less tangible that a guy standing in front of you.

My 2 cents worth,

JPK

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #46869 - 18/01/06 07:08 AM

Bass pro still has the gun, its a box lock, and has been lowered to $21500.00, also it is new unfired. It was built in 1982 according to the sales guy. It is at the SCI now on display.

Colorado

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Grizzly
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #46877 - 18/01/06 09:48 AM

400NE,

You asked a specific question. I answered your question. If you don't like the answer, maybe you should have not asked the question in the first place.

And you are right, they owe me no explanation whatsoever. On a customer service scale, that is not good for running an ongoing business. It conveys the impression that they not only don't need your business, they don't want it.

As for internet business, I will repeat that you are not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change yours. So why not let us leave it at that, and let's avoid your next "WTF" attack.

JPK, I agree with you that these guys have no bad intent. They are just used to doing business the old fashioned way. What I was trying to point out was the perception that can be created by what has transpired here.

I am in the Central time zone and can't call from work. They close promptly at 5 PM (I did try to call after work). Of course, they could call me but never asked for a phone number.

Just got an e-mail back from your guy there noting that he is out of the office until the 23rd.

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JPK
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: Grizzly]
      #46888 - 18/01/06 11:22 AM

Grizzly,

Glad Paul got back to you in some form.

Have you considred calling about the Thys at Bass Pro Shops, now listed for a more reasonable $21,500? Looks like a very nice rifle.

Its not on their website, FYI.

The best time to buy a DG DR is following the SCI show. If a dealer brings a rifle back, he knows that he has missed the very best opportunity of the year to sell that rifle. You might be able to negotiate a good deal on a nice rifle since the dealer is looking at sitting on that rifle for who knows how long.

Good Luck,

JPK

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bulldog563
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: JPK]
      #46922 - 18/01/06 03:53 PM

Grizz, What happened to the Heym? Are you still getting it?

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Grizzly
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Re: Marcel Thys [Re: bulldog563]
      #46986 - 19/01/06 10:03 AM

Bulldog,

Still on track for the Heym. The only reason I wanted to see the G&H was because more than a few people said I should check it out, given Thys made the rifle. If I was totally bowled over by the rifle and the service, I may have been tempted to stray. Based on my experience, I am not tempted in the least.

I feel that Marcel making rifles in his own name is one thing - making rifles for someone else is quite another thing. The difference between being an employee and an owner. I am sure that the G&H Thys doubles are great rifles, but the G&H price is substantially higher than the Heym.

I am looking for a shooter from a company that stands behind its product. I don't care about engraving; just a nice piece of wood. I have an older Simson Suhl 12 gauge that fits that description, and the Germans tend to over engineer everything. I'll take a no-makeup-precision-machined-tough-accurate-as-hell-beast-buster any day.

In the field, reputation matters not. A battle brings amazing clarity of mind, and in the threatning shit storm that lasts seconds. When you are into the weeds that deep, slow motion develops for those "in the zone". Live or die is a pretty powerful situation.

Pretty gets in your way.

10 more days!




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