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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
the 458 Winnie?
      #4547 - 23/10/03 11:23 AM

Should the .458 Winchester be considered a 'Traditional African Cartridge'? I mean in the same vein as the 465H&H and the 318 WR.

Or is it more of a modern cartridge like the 300WB?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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IronBuck
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Reged: 11/01/03
Posts: 237
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: mickey]
      #4601 - 28/10/03 12:26 PM

I think that you could call it "traditional" but if so I would call your other two examples, the 465 H&H and 318 WR "classic" Cartridges. They are all African cartridges for sure but from different eras. Would the 458 WM ever have become as popular in Africa without Knock getting out of making ammo for the "classic" heavies? Maybe, maybe not. But the 458 in affordable bolt actions opened up African hunting with heavies to many who would otherwise been unable to pay for the pleasure.

I read alot about the 458 being "marginal", but wouldn't one make a great first time big bore to own? Cheap Ammo(relatively) and able to fit shorter actions? Handloading componenets are easy to obtain. Wide bullet selection.

I have a Ruger MArk II in 7mm Remington Mag that I just do not use that much anymore. It shoots great but I just have lots of other rifles and actually do most of my hunting with a bow. I was thinking about turning it into a big bore for a future African buff hunt (still a dream ) Because it will only handle up to a 30-06 length action teh 458 WM is a natural.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: IronBuck]
      #4602 - 28/10/03 12:36 PM

Ironbuck

Good post. The first Big bore I bought was a 458. It was a push feed, all I could afford at the time, and worked well for two years.

I no longer own a 458 but understand that with the new powders they will shoot to the energy that was originally intended.

Everyone should have one, don't you think?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: mickey]
      #4604 - 28/10/03 01:15 PM

True enough. With Australian ADI powder I was getting 2120 fps with the 500 gn Hornady in a 23 inch barrel.
Also played with some 300 gn bonded cores at 2700 fps!!!
These were used on feral pigs and goats and killed real well on chest shots but as you can imagine their expansion rate was huge and penetration was stuff all!
They were really meant for the 45/70.
One morning I had 2 hangfires and one missfire while using these loads so stopped using them after that.
The missfire wedged the bullet just into the start of the rifling and all the powder was still compressed into the case and was unburned.
This 458 only weighed 8 1/2 pound so I can tell you those two hangfires were not a lot of fun and I'm starting to flinch just thinking about it!
My worst failures with this rifle were when using RE7 powder and also when loading some 400 grain bullets.
With RE7 and 500 gn bullets I couldn't get anywhere near the velocity quoted in their reloading data.
One lot of 400 grainers came apart so badly that they did nothing more than create big surface wounds.

That 458 was one of my favourite rifles but I sold it to help fund a double.
Actually one of my long term clients bought it and brings it up on all his top end hunts so I still get to see and shoot it.

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mickey
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Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: 4seventy]
      #4605 - 28/10/03 01:23 PM

4 seventy

What do you think caused the misfires? It seems you are thinking it was a compressed load? didn't the primer go off?

I know what you mean though about hangfires. I have an old 6.5 Mannlicher and a fellow in BC gave me 6 boxes of old Canadian Ammo for it. About every third one would go click and then fire in about 5 seconds. Very unnerving so I just pulled the bullets for the brass.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: mickey]
      #4606 - 28/10/03 02:03 PM

mickey
Don't know for sure what caused the missfire but I am thinking that something maybe polluted the powder before the bullet was seated.
Yes the primer had fired and that's what lodged the bullet into the lands.
I dug the powder out of the missfired case and it came out in clumps and was a yellowish colour instead of the usual grey.
When I got home I pulled all my other reloads from that batch and could not find anything wrong with them.
Perhaps I managed to get a drop of bore solvent into a couple of cases or something similar.
I'm pretty sure it must have been my cockup anyway and it had the immediate effect of tidying up my reloading practices!

Several years later I bought 200 new 458 cases some of which had been reloaded with a dupont powder of unknown type and Hornady 350 grainers.
I pulled these and was shocked to find that the powder had to be dug out of the cases with a screwdriver and some had powder granules stuck to the base of the bullet along with signs of some form of corrosion.
Some bullets had powder stuck to them and some just had corrosion while others looked quite normal.
I think I still have some of these bullets so maybe NitroX might be kind enough to post a photo if I do one and email it.
My 500 grain loads are well compressed but have never given any problems.

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Sean_Edmunds
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: IronBuck]
      #4737 - 03/11/03 02:43 PM

I built a 458 on a Mauser that I'll probably never use. The problem is I am a left handed shooter. Now I want to sell my Mauser and build another 458 on a Ruger action. I saw a post at the 24hr Campfire with a picture of a set of fixed sights with a peep that would definitely make the final cut on my next 458 if the 'smith can adapt one to a Ruger integral scope base. Sean

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: mickey]
      #4740 - 03/11/03 06:25 PM

Getting back to the original discussion, I think the .458 Win Mag is a true African classic.

Why?

Becuase it virtually was the only big bore dangerous rifle calibre in common use for which could be bought factory ammo or a decade or two.

Kynoch ammo was non-existent or hard to get so few Nitro Express calibres could be used that seriously. The .416 Rigby hadn't been resurrected. The .416 Rem Mag didn't exist as did the various .450 and .458 Magnums that came into being after the Win Mag. Maybe there were some .404 Jeffreys as RWS did make some ammo but they would have been scarce on the ground.

The .458 Win Mag was available in a moderately priced short action bolt action. And was bought by a lot of game departments, PHs and clients.

Would anyone agree it is probably the second most common big bore calibre after the .375 H&H ?

Its subsequent fall from grace perhaps had more to do with marketing new cartridges than practical causes (??). Though the drop in factory loadings' velocity contributed to its reputation

In the end it only is perhaps one hundred to one hundred and fifty feet per second slower than various .450 NE cartridges it was designed to duplicate. Yes its pressure is higher, but if it is used in a stronger bolt action ie - than a double (why anyone would want it in a double astounds me!) that may be the traded off.

I wouldn't mind owning one one day as I regard it as Classic an African calibre as the .375 H&H but a little younger.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: 4seventy]
      #4783 - 06/11/03 01:07 AM

Here's the photo of 4seventy's 458 projectiles with powder stuck to them



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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4seventy
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: NitroX]
      #4875 - 10/11/03 06:08 PM

NitroX
Re... why anyone would want a 458 in a double astounds me


I handled one a couple of years back that I think might have been able to change your mind.
It sure was a nice thing and I wanted it badly but the owner was not ready to sell at the time.
Yes it was in 458 win mag and made in Europe.
It was a 9 pin sidelock ejector with 24 inch chopper lump barrels, with quarter rib and one standing-two folding rear, and silver bead front and folding nightsight.
The action had colour case hardened finish and was fully deep relief engraved showing Elephant Buffalo Lion and Leopard.
All the internal lock parts and pin ends were gold washed.
The gun featured gold inlays, cocking indicators, extended top strap, cartridge trap and grip trap (both engraved) and the stock included a cheekpiece.
The action locked up with double under bites and Greener type crossbolt.
The lumps featured huge radii at the intersection of lumps to barrel flats and similar at intersection of action flats and standing breech.
This thing was built strong!
Of course it had bushed strikers and came with the factory case.
The owner was a man who had owned a lot of quality doubles and knew what he was talking about.
He pointed out to me that about the only thing missing was a rolled trigger guard.
It was a lovely gun, had been used a little, and was still nice and tight.
Sure it had those piddley little extractors that you often see on doubles chambered for rimless cartridges and I wouldn't trust them on dangerous game, but who cares.
It would have been a great rabbit gun!



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mickey
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: 4seventy]
      #4879 - 11/11/03 02:27 AM

A beautiful rifle and you could get it rechambered to 450 3.25 or 450#2!

Of course you would need a new name.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: mickey]
      #4886 - 11/11/03 09:48 AM

Very true. Which cartridge would be your choice for the rechamber bearing in mind that it would have a direct effect on the way you would need to address me after the job was done.


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mickey
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: 4seventy]
      #4890 - 11/11/03 01:34 PM

Hmmmmm. I like the 450 #2 but I also like the 450 3 1/4. Either I guess, depending on the width of the action.

I'm not sure I would be comfortable in calling you either 3 1/4 inches or #2.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: mickey]
      #4892 - 11/11/03 01:43 PM

No, I wouldn't be real happy with #2, but the other would be OK.
Talking thickness rather than length of course!

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mickey
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: 4seventy]
      #4893 - 11/11/03 01:56 PM

Are we still talking about rifles?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: mickey]
      #4894 - 11/11/03 02:06 PM

Well, er, actually no, so had best get back on the subject.
Yeah, the action would have accommodated 450#2 I think,
but regarding case capacity wouldn't the 450 3 1/4 be a little less fussy to reload?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: 4seventy]
      #4895 - 11/11/03 02:31 PM

#2

"Thickness" is only 0.564 of an inch.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: 4seventy]
      #4896 - 11/11/03 02:32 PM

I'm not sure what you mean. The rim thickness? If so I have some of the new BeLL formed cases and they feed through my dies slick as scum on a Louisiana pond. 95 grains of 4831, no wad. 2160fps and groups .5" at 50 yards.

I have had problems pulling the rim off with some other dies. I came to the conclusion, after I got this set, that it was a combination of sloppy fit on the shell holder and rough interior.

As in all things finesse is better than brute force. Unless the sonofabitch just won't work, than a hammer is appropriate.

But I digress.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: NitroX]
      #4899 - 11/11/03 06:43 PM

NitroX
I meant that if the new name was to be "3 1/4 inches", that would be OK if it suggested a thickness of 3 1/4" rather than a length of 3 1/4"!!!

Mick
Twas just a joke involving the mammoth proportions of my manhood.


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mickey
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Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: 4seventy]
      #4908 - 12/11/03 04:11 PM

In reply to:

Mick
Twas just a joke involving the mammoth proportions of my manhood.



I'll take your word for it.

I had a friend who bought a Kreighoff at SCI a two barrel set one in 458WM and the other 375 H&H. He decieded to sell it and the buyer rebored the 458 to 450#2 but could do nothing with the 375.

He broke the little clip off of the ejector after a couple of boxes of ammo. He is now considering a rebore and rechamber to 400 Jeffe. I think that if you have to have a rimless cartridge you should not have ejectors but extractors.

Interesting enough the 450#2 shot better after it was rechambered than before as a 458.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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RobertD
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Reged: 16/11/03
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Loc: East Bay, CA, USA
Re: the 458 Winnie? [Re: mickey]
      #4974 - 16/11/03 03:21 PM

I have a 458 Win Mag that I had made up on a Mauser VZ24 action. I also had it tapped for a scope and Talley makes a set of rings that also has an interchangable ghost sight in the rear. This rifle has a 22 inch Douglas XX air gauge barrel and I had the action fully blueprinted. Fred Zeglin built the rifle for me.

I loaded up Hornady 500 solids, using the min load of H4895 listed in the Hodgdon's #27 manual and I got 2003 fps at the chronograph about 15 feet in front of the muzzle. I will also add that I had a custom leade when the barrel was chambered.

This was the old style solid, with the steel jacket, kind of like the Woodleigh design. I shot my best ever group with that rifle, 3/4 inches at 100 yards, 4 shots group, measured across the widest points. When I purchased another box of these solids, I found Hornady switched to the homogenous solid they are now using. Unfortunately, these bullets wouldn't group worth a dang. At that point, I quit developing loads for it using the 500 g slug. I am told that the Hornady has improved this bullet and it now shoots quite well, but I haven't tried it. It would be interesting to try the Woodleigh and see how that shoots, but I haven't quite gotten around to do that.

I now load the 350 g Hornady round nose bullet. I haven't chronographed this one yet, but will soon. This bullet is probably the best choice for a 458 here in the states, as it is designed for muzzle velocites from a 460 Weatherby down to a terminal velocity of 1600 fps, according to Hornady.

This was my first big bore and I am very happy with it. My second big bore is a 416 Rigby, but that is another story.

RobertD

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