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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Proof Marks
      #45311 - 30/12/05 11:53 PM

These are the proff marks for the Hollis & Son. Any deciphering will be most appreciated.



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"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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SteveH
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Reged: 26/12/03
Posts: 118
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon
Re: Proof Marks [Re: bonanza]
      #45313 - 31/12/05 01:09 AM

I'm no expert but those are Birmingham proof marks, rules of 1904. Which puts the manufacture between 1904 and 1925.

Crown over BP: Birmingham Proof
Crown over BV: Birmingham View (visual inspection)
Crown over NP: Birmingham Nitro Proofed
450 EX: Caliber and "Express Rifle"
Cordite 70 - 480: Maximum bullet weight over the standard powder load (both in grains) ( beleive that this indicates that that it was proofed for semi-smokeless powder)


If anyone would car to correct me, please feel free.

-Stev

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Proof Marks [Re: bonanza]
      #45318 - 31/12/05 02:20 AM

Yeah, 1904 Brum. No date code mark (crossed swords) evident, which came into use in 1921.

70 Cordite, 480 Max is the original standard .500/.450 load. 65 Cord was Tropical. Standard was 75 Cordite later. Teddy Roosevelt's 1908 Holland was a 70 Cord gun.

A. Hollis disappeared from the London directories in 1919 and is presumed to have ceased to trade then or just prior. I imagine that they closed up during WWI. I think this has to be accurate because I've never encountered one with the date code. 1904 to 1914 should catch this one. The highest A. Hollis SN I've encountered was 15153.

All of the hammerless A. Hollis DRs I've seen have been Harry Leonard built guns. It will be interesting to see if this hammergun is. If it is, Leonard's number will be stamped just in front of the fore-end loop on the lower rib - 3 or 4 digits. The highest Leonard number I've found on an A. Hollis gun was 1962 (on Hollis number 15153).
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Proof Marks [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #45319 - 31/12/05 02:42 AM

Yep would love to see that Leonard number on the under rib!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Proof Marks [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #45320 - 31/12/05 02:44 AM

Would this mean that the rifle was made on or after 1904?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Proof Marks [Re: bonanza]
      #45339 - 31/12/05 05:40 AM

After 1904.

On the under rib near where the forearm attaches to the barrels (barrel loop) there should be a 3 or 4 digit number.

Does your rifle have that? Also do you know if your rifle is an A. or I. Hollis?



--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Proof Marks [Re: Rusty]
      #45343 - 31/12/05 06:14 AM

A. Hollis and Son, London

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Proof Marks [Re: bonanza]
      #45353 - 31/12/05 09:26 AM

Is there a resource where you can find most proof marks and their meaning. In "The Hammerless Double Rifle" it says that the crown over BP is the Birmingham proof for black powder.... Am I missing something? I would like to get a book that lists most proof marks and their meaning. Anyone know of a book like this?

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Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Proof Marks [Re: bulldog563]
      #45362 - 31/12/05 10:04 AM

Bonanza,
Can you tell me the 4 digit number on the under rib? I can narrow the date of manufacture a bit.



--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Proof Marks [Re: bulldog563]
      #45381 - 31/12/05 01:05 PM

Bulldog:

I don't have that book, but many other books say the same thing. They're technically wrong. Crown over BP (which stands for Birmingham Proof), introduced in 1904, is the Definitive Proof Mark of the Birmingham Proof House, and simply signifies passage of final proof and is not specific to propellant type. Prior to the 1954 Rules of Proof, there was no such thing as a "Black Powder" proof mark. The reason for the confusion is simple. Under all British proof rules prior to 1955, ALL proof was for Black Powder ONLY - UNLESS the Definitive Proof Mark was accompanied by marks indicating that SPECIAL proof (semi-smokeless) had been conducted (Crown over NP & Cordite 70, 480 MAX). Since all proof was for black only (unless "NP" was also present), there was no need for a specific "Black Powder" proof mark. It was not until the 1954, and subsequent, Rules of Proof that proof for semi-smokeless was assumed and specific marks for black powder proof were finally introduced ("Not Nitro" for London, "Black Powder" for Brum).

British proof rules and marks are extremely simple. All the books make them extremely complex, largely because they don't explain them as a system. I've never found one that didn't contain errors. The Standard Directory of Proof Marks by Wirnsberger is fairly decent.

Note that "semi-smokeless", "smokeless", and "nitro" mean the same thing.
--------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Proof Marks [Re: Rusty]
      #45433 - 01/01/06 01:34 AM

Serial number is 15042

Number under rib is 838

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Proof Marks [Re: bonanza]
      #45444 - 01/01/06 04:17 AM

Interesting. Thanks, Bonanza. The boxlock .400 on Cabela's site is No. 15044, Leonard number is 83? (the tool struck at an angle and the last digit is illegible). The buyer has it at J. J. 's now, waiting on a report. This was the first 3-digit gun Rusty and I had seen. The .470 boxlock at H&H is No. 15153 and has Leonard No. 1962. From the Leonard numbers on Jeffery rifles that I have rough dates for, I think the .470 is from about 1914. Your gun is 111/1124 guns earlier, so I think it has to be a pretty early gun, though certainly not earlier than 1905.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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AdamTayler
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Reged: 22/03/04
Posts: 688
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Re: Proof Marks [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #45446 - 01/01/06 04:28 AM

In reply to:

British proof rules and marks are extremely simple. All the books make them extremely complex, largely because they don't explain them as a system. I've never found one that didn't contain errors.



Sounds like a good reason for you to put a book together. What do you have to loose?

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It's the journey, not the destination.

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