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Hubert
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Tasmania , Australia
Scoping Merkel model 141
      #44852 - 25/12/05 05:57 PM

Hello,new user here.Glad to be here. I have a question about mounting a scope on my new Merkel model 141(adjustable barrels) Do I a) Set up scope for point of aim betwween boresighted barrels? or b)Bore sight right barrel and adjust left barrel (adjustable) to it? I have claw mounts so I am wary of having enough windage adjustment.Advice,please. Thanks Hubert

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3729
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Hubert]
      #44856 - 25/12/05 07:25 PM

You may get a difference of opinion on this, so here's mine to start with.

1. Adjust the scope to the same point-of-aim as the iron sights to put you on the paper for starters.

2. Adjust the barrels to give the tightest composite group possible, regardless of aiming point.

3. Shoot a 6-shot group (3 right + 3 left) at the distance you wish the scope to be at zero.

4. Clamp the rifle in a gun-vise or similar, with the cross-hair on the aiming mark (not the point-of-impact).

5. Without moving the rifle, adjust the crosshairs onto the centre of the composite 6-shot group.

Others may suggest sighting the scope for only one barrel to optimise accuracy, but IMHO those who suggest this are stuck on bolt-guns and don't understand double rifles. The accuracy of a double rifle is its composite group, and with adjustable barrels this should be damn near as tight as a bolt-gun anyway.

Hope this helps, and welcome to the forums mate!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Hubert]
      #44880 - 26/12/05 10:27 AM

Hubert, no need to go further than what Marrakai just posted! He just beat me to it!

Enjoy your new rifle!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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GG375
.333 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Hubert]
      #44886 - 26/12/05 12:08 PM

Hubert

What Marrakai said sounds to me like the way to do it - sorry I don't have any first hand experience with a scoped double.........yet!!!!

Would you mind telling us a bit about your 141? I am currently scheming about how to salt some $$ away to get one as I have always lusted after a light cal scoped double and the 141 in my Merkel catalogue has me really interested.

I would love to know what cal your's is and how much it weighs? What scope did you go with and I'd also be interested to hear how you go with siting it in and your comments on the barrel regulating/adjustment process. Are you in Australia?

Cheers mate.

GG

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Hubert
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Tasmania , Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: GG375]
      #44911 - 26/12/05 04:54 PM

GG375,Yes,I`m down in Victoria. I purchased my Merkel 141 through Granite Arms(wholesaler) and Mcdonalds gun shop.It`s 7x57R and I had it regulated for RWS ammo but I shall have to handload as RWS is hard to get in Oz.I have had it for a short time only but it has met-or exceeded-all my expectations.It`s petite,slim and has lovely balance but with a feeling of solidity as well.The finish is excellent but perhaps alittle more hand finishing of the fitted parts was required as it was somewhat tight,particularly the forend.The wood was of good quality with straight grain flow.I didn`t get the adjustment instructions with the rifle but after pointing this out the factory emailed them to me.Once the functioning of the adjustment system is understood changing the relative position of the barrels is easy.I decided to have a scope mounted here in Oz because I speculated it would be relatively easy with the adjustable muzzle-as well as cheaper.That job hasn`t been completed yet so I will let you know the result.All in all though I am delighted with the rifle.Regards HUBERT

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Hubert
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Tasmania , Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Hubert]
      #44912 - 26/12/05 05:08 PM

GG375,After looking at my response to your post I see I have missed a couple of points.The rifle weighs exactly 7 lbs without a scope- a little heavier than advertised.I did have a hiccup with the scope I put on it as this might be of interest as I believe it is -or was - a problem in Europe. I had a beautiful new (or at least unused) Zeiss Jena 4x32 with rails front and middle tube.The front rail was very short and in removing it from the rather stiff claws it split along the front rail on one side.I removed the front rail and have ordered a ring to hold it together. I notice that in Europe now the rail is along the centre tube only with a ring on the objective lens for scopes mounted with claws.I noticed also that the West German Zeiss 4x32 of a slightly later vintage had the front rail reinfoced.All this suggests my problem was not unusual.Best wishes HUBERT

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Hubert
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Tasmania , Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Marrakai]
      #44916 - 26/12/05 07:24 PM

Marrakai,Thank you.Your first point is what I was looking for.i.e. scope set up to point of aim of iron sights.This seems right to me.I was misled by Graeme Wright`s comment that Holland and Holland regulate for open sights OR the scope but not both.But Point of aim of open sights is the starting point for scope regulation as the rifle is already regulated for this.Best Wishes HUBERT

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3729
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Hubert]
      #44921 - 26/12/05 10:36 PM

With claw-mounts this is simple enough to do with the aid of a gun-vise or makeshift clamp, so the gun doesn't move while attaching the scope after aligning the iron sights.

With the relatively light-weight high-velocity small-bores like your 7mm, there may be some change in the regulation after fitting the scope. The big-bores are by all accounts much more forgiving, though my experience with scoped doubles is extremely limited.

Be sure to keep us posted.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Marrakai]
      #44937 - 27/12/05 03:06 AM

Hubert

I have two scoped Doubles. A 9.3 x74 Francotte and a 400 3 1/4 Alex Henry. The Francotte was built with a scope and shoots both open and the scope to point of aim with the same load and no difference in the grouping.

The AH had the scope added with claw mounts sometime after it was made and will not shoot the same load from both. I have two different loads for it depending on what I am doing. I will say the scope stays on 90% of the time.

If your rifle acts like the AH you will need to start at the beginning to develop a load and always shoot through the scope.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: mickey]
      #44939 - 27/12/05 03:56 AM

In reply to:

Hubert

I have two scoped Doubles. A 9.3 x74 Francotte and a 400 3 1/4 Alex Henry. The Francotte was built with a scope and shoots both open and the scope to point of aim with the same load and no difference in the grouping.

The AH had the scope added with claw mounts sometime after it was made and will not shoot the same load from both. I have two different loads for it depending on what I am doing. I will say the scope stays on 90% of the time.

If your rifle acts like the AH you will need to start at the beginning to develop a load and always shoot through the scope.



Mickey Sometimes the cure for your problem with the AH is a lighter scope. This is the reason I dont like most European scopes, especially those with rail mounts. They are generally to heavy, and tend to throw off the regulation of the rifle when mounted.

There are two things one needs to be careful of, when mounting a scope on a double rifle that was not regulated for a scope by the maker. They are #1 the actual weight of the scope, and #2 the hight, and weight of the scope mount.

The over all weight of the scope & mounts will, most times, change the way the rife recoils considerably, as more weight is added. Addtionally, the hight of the mount creates more torque, the higher it gets above the CG of the rifle, changeing the recoil arch. The scope should be mounted as low as possible, and should be as light as is posible, and still be a quality scope, and repeteable QD mount!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #44944 - 27/12/05 04:44 AM

mac

Oddly enough the Francotte has a 1.75x6 Zeiss on rail mounts and the AH has a 1.5x5 Leupold on standard claw mounts.

Alex Henry w/ 1.5x5 Leupold



Francotte w/ 1.75x6 Zeiss





--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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GG375
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Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: mickey]
      #44990 - 27/12/05 07:18 PM

Hubert

Thanks for the info. For what it's worth I have a SS 7x65R that I reload for and have been using Highland brass in it and it seems to be OK for cheap stuff - pretty sure they make 7x57R cases. Who is doing the scope mounting for you? When I order mine I will be getting the scope mounted at the factory and the scope will most probably be a matte Leupold VXIII 2.5-8X.

Any chance of posting/sending some photos when she's up and running? Would love to have a look at a "real" one - the only pictures I've seen so far have been in catalogue and web site and they always put the flash ones in there!

I wonder with these light cal doubles if the barrel contours are the same for all the cals they are offered in? If so I would imagine the 9.3 would be a bit lighter and the 6.5 would be the heaviest?? Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

Cheers.

GG

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: GG375]
      #45005 - 28/12/05 03:07 AM

In reply to:

I wonder with these light cal doubles if the barrel contours are the same for all the cals they are offered in? If so I would imagine the 9.3 would be a bit lighter and the 6.5 would be the heaviest?? Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

Cheers.

GG



I have one chambered for 9.3X74R but have not handled one in a smaller chambering. My guess is the barrels down to 8mm would be the same dia as the 9.3, but the ones smaller would be lumped into a smaller dia barrel. You could be right however, they may all be the same dia from 9.3 down. In any event, even the smallest chambering would not be overly heavy for caliber. My 9.3 handles like a nice 410 shotgun, and feels lighter than it is. It weighs in at 8.6 lbs! That seems very light to me, because most of my doubles weigh 10.5 lbs up!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Hubert
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Tasmania , Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: GG375]
      #45056 - 28/12/05 11:42 AM

GG375,I have managed to get some RWS brass so I shall try to develop a load with those.I also have the 139 grain round nose projectiles with which the rifle was regulated.I will try to replicate the 2560fps of the RWS factory load.I`m going to start with Winchester 760 powder. The gunsmith mounting the scope is Rolf Bachnik(ex Century Arms) who is experienced with claw mounts.When everything is in order I will try to display some photographs.I believe all the barrel contours are the same for the 141 but I`m not absolutely sure.Similarly, I think the stock is the same as well. I note you intend factopry mounting a Leoupold scope. The factory use Recknagel parts they told me.So you will be able to use swing or claw mounts.I was undecided about a factory job as the cost for claws was over $A2000. I wanted claws because a rail scope mounts very high with swing mounts;the raila add about 6mm to the height.I also wanted a 4x32 scope because the size of it suited the slim (and short) dimensions of the rifle.I notice that GSI in the states use a bridge mount for Leoupolds but again the scope mounts a little high for my taste.I gather from conversation with Rolf that his preference is for swing mounts because they have windage adjustment.My uderstanding is that claws can be moved a small amount but not much.Regards HUBERT

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
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Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Hubert]
      #45134 - 29/12/05 12:42 PM

Hubert,
Don't forget that Woodleigh makes 140, 160 and 175 grain weldcore projectiles in 7mm.
I've killed a lot of game with these, most with the 160.
They are awesome bullets and always expand beautifully and also retain very high weight percentages.
Welcome to the forums and best of luck with your scope setup.

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MichiganShooter
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Reged: 31/10/05
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Loc: Tri-Counties, Michigan, USA
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: GG375]
      #45523 - 02/01/06 11:03 AM

GG375,

As of this afternoon, I too am salting cash away for a 141. I had thought a Krieghoff Classic was the way to go, but getting ejectors and a 28 gauge frame for a double is optimal for me. Also, the 141 can be re-regulated for windage and elevation while Krieghoff is just for windage.

So when the time comes to trade your savings for steel and wood, you may want to pursue buying in Europe. Because of the price difference, I certainly will.

Triebel has been very responsive and their prices are roughly half of what doubles are in the states. The prices they quote include an 18% VAT that is not charged for exports. Strip out the VAT and the FOB price in Germany is 5,287.80 Australian dollars, or 3,872 in Yankee bucks.

Here is their link for all things Merkel:

http://www.triebel.de/suche.php3?begriff=Fabrikat&value=Merkel

And here is their link for the 141:

http://www.triebel.de/suche2.php3?bes=&artikelnr=254493&begriff=Fabrikat&value=Merkel

Please note that I have nothing to do with them. They just happen to have a website that has low prices and seem experienced with the export business.

Good luck.



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GG375
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Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
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Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: MichiganShooter]
      #45528 - 02/01/06 12:56 PM

Michiganshooter

Thanks for that info - I will flick them an email and see what can be done.

Hubert

I agree with your assessment of claw vs swing mounts. Apparently Krieghoff also prefer to use swing mounts rather than claw and probably for the same reasons as Rolf. I still want claws tho and if the factory can't/won't mount a leupold for me then I will have to see what other brands they will use.

For me Leupold scopes have always delivered the goods - they are light, look good, great optical quality, good price, good support etc etc.

Please don't forget to post some photos when you are ready.

Cheers.

GG

ps Did you price the colour case hardening option and wood upgrades etc? If so how much extra were they?

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Hubert
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Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Tasmania , Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: GG375]
      #45536 - 02/01/06 04:25 PM

GG375,Re your question about wood and case colour upgrades.I did make enquiries about a wood upgrade from various sources-not just the wholesaler.One source made a comment to me that the wood upgrades seem rather small in increments.So a wood upgrade might not give you a very much better stock.If you look at the Merkel catalogue even the very expensive grades seem to me to have rather modest wood.Merkel seem to place higher priority on straight grain flow rather than colour and figure.In view of this I chose to stay with the standard wood for the time being.Ross Waghorn is a very fine local stocker so I might go to him if I decide on something eye catching.I didnt enquire about clour case hardening.Regards HUBERT

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GG375
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Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Hubert]
      #45805 - 05/01/06 11:54 AM

Hubert

Did you place your order with McDonalds because they gave you the best price or was there some other reason? I've been in touch with Granite arms and they've given me a list of retailers to choose from. Interesting comments re the wood. What you say makes sense to me. I will probably do the same - I've got one of Ross's stocks on my custom .270 and like you I will get him to restock the Merkel if it needs nicer wood.

How long did it take from paying deposit to receiving your rifle?

Cheers.

GG

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Hubert
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Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Tasmania , Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: GG375]
      #45873 - 06/01/06 10:10 AM

GG375,I ordered through Mcdonalds because they gave me the best price.delivery time was quoted at 4-6 months but it took a couple of months longer than that because the principal director had a sudden severe illness which meant some delay .One aspect which pleased me was that everything was exactly as I ordered(eg double triggers,type of stock,ejectors)This doesnt always happen as I`m sure you know.Regards,HUBERT

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Hubert
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Tasmania , Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Hubert]
      #53484 - 28/03/06 06:04 PM

Updating the mounting of scope on my new rifle:I managed to get someRWS 162 grain cone points and they shot well,somewhere between 1.5" to 2.5".However I have had a few problemswhich thankfully seem to have settled down. A) It is absolutely imperative that BOTH the two jackscrews are strong and firm against the left (adjustable) barrel.If this is not done the group varies.It can be deceptive in that there is some take-up before theindividual screw is firm.Then check the other one again.I got caught out on this. B)I had a good deal of copper build upin the new barrels.It was a devil of a job getting it out.The only solvent which worked was Sweets which has ammonia in it.I was reluctant to use this as it can etch steel so I had to be careful(I should note that the copper was there after regulation by the factory) C)Aafter about100 shots-50 each barrel-the copper build up is less of a problem.The tendancy to build up is reduced.Im told that new barrels have to be shot in ,whatever that means. D)Two other variables which seem tobe now reduced in significanceare 1)group variation betwwen hot and cold barrels 2)group variation between clean and fouled barrels I would suppose this is because the barrels are shootng in,as they say.Or perhaps I am now familiar with the rifle and shoot it better. Generallythough I am well pleased as the rifle a trim ,light little mistress and Im madly in love. REGARDS Hubert

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GG375
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Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: Hubert]
      #53641 - 30/03/06 08:53 AM


Hubert

Thanks for the feedback - please keep it coming as you develop loads etc. How much did she end up weighing with the scope and mounts fitted? Are you happy with RB's work?
Any chance of a couple of photos?

Cheers mate.

GG

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Hubert
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Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Tasmania , Australia
Re: Scoping Merkel model 141 [Re: GG375]
      #54254 - 06/04/06 10:26 AM

GG375 In reply to your question about weight the results are:1)Before claw mount bases and without shells:7lbs .2)After claw mount bases fitted and with 2 cartridges:7lbs8ozs3)With scope attached and with 2 cartridges8lbs4ozs. Rolf Bachnik did a fine job on the claws:engraved with traditional cross hatch and blued beautifully.My only (minor) disappointment was Rolf`s way of mating the rear claws to the spring loaded lock.I expected a definite,distinct click or snap as the claws spring home.Rolf thinks this is conducive to quick and excessive wear and made the fitting finer and smaller and also tighter.This means the mating is made with a progressive push- I am hopeful of posting some photographs soon so all this will then be plain. BEST WISHES Hubert

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