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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: California
Third Fastener?
      #44535 - 21/12/05 05:52 PM

Whats the deal with a third fastener? All I really know is there are different methods of incorporating a third fastener and some builders don't use one at all and it lends strength to the barrel action interface. Just trying to get some info on the subject so really any insight would be appreciated.

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Edited by bulldog563 (21/12/05 06:06 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: bulldog563]
      #44541 - 21/12/05 06:48 PM


Bulldog,

A third fastener - sometimes called (third bite or hidden third bite)
vary from maker to maker.

Most third fasteners come from between the 2 barrels about in line
with the rib and go down to the start of the Ejector / Exractors.

You can tell some easily - Webley PHV1 (Clover Leaf) or Screw Grip (Spade)
and I often use the third fatserner to tell who made the gun.

Some companies - ie Holland & Holland - did not have third fasteners on
their guns (particulalry shotguns) and this was a sign of the highest quality
gun.

IMHO, some third fasteners are great - e work really well - Webley's being an example
and some I think are badly designed made as the lose bearing contact and so have no bearing
on the strength of the gun.

Someone is likely to be able to put a better spin on things than me but hope this
small amount helps.

500 Nitro

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44547 - 21/12/05 08:27 PM

No, that's fine mate, but I would just like to add that there is a big difference between what many would refer to as a "third fastener" and an actual "third bite". The latter implies that the doll's head is 'bolted' when the action is closed. A Doll's Head might be regarded as a third fastener in its own right, and it will add strength to the lock-up for sure, but a doll's head with a third bite is much stronger. A Greener Cross-Bolt is an effective third bite too, and one of the best. Also, the Purdey-style 'hidden third bite' is a third bite without a doll's head or rib-extension

Both these doll's heads have a third bite:




And just for laughs, here's a German double rifle with a Greener cross-bolt and a doll's head!



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500Nitro
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: Marrakai]
      #44549 - 21/12/05 09:40 PM


Marrakai

Thanks for posting the photos.

Do you hvae the photo of the 2 guns from above - I think I sent it to
you so it would be useful if you could post it as it shows the 2 Webley
Dolls heads well. If not email me and I'll send it to you.

For those interested, the 2 guns are:-

LEFT GUN Joseph Lang 500 x 3" Nitro built on a WEBLEY SCREW GRIP action

RIGHT GUN Army & Navy 500 x 3" Nitro built on a WEBLEY PHV1 action.
(the high bit on the rib is a scope mount)

Enjoy !


500 Nitro

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bulldog563
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44553 - 21/12/05 10:56 PM

Kind of off topic but do the sideclips on the Manton do anything or are they just cosmetic.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: Marrakai]
      #44554 - 21/12/05 11:18 PM

Bulldog:

Purdey double underlugs alone are sufficient for a double rifle, provided everything is fitted properly, which it rarely is on the cheaper guns. A rib extension (straight, dolls head, etc.) is highly desireable as it helps keep the hook square on the hinge. Sadly, the cheaper guns are the least likely to have one, and the most likely to need it. Clipped fences, as seen on the Manton above (looks to have been made for Manton by F. W. Heym) also help with this.

Once there is some wear on the locking surfaces, the barrels get a bit of a running start when they try to hinge open on firing, and looseness will then increase rapidly due to the battering effect. The various "third fasteners" that engage the rib extension are intended to prevent this, keeping the gun on-face longer. The best are the Webley Screw Grips seen above (A. & W. C. on the left and PHV-1 on the right). Screw grips are particularly effective because the engagement wears in rather than wearing out. I'm entirely ambivalent about the other common types. Not to be contrarian, but I think I've probably seen more double guns with Greener cross-bolts off-face than those with any other type of third fastener. Holland's hidden type (like the Royal) seems particularly ineffective as well.
------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bulldog563
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44556 - 21/12/05 11:50 PM

Are Purdey double underlugs the same thing as double Purdey Bolting? What is the difference? If Clipped Fences (and/or the extended rib) are desirable why don't you see them on most DR's? Are they hard to incorporste into a DR correctly?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: bulldog563]
      #44557 - 22/12/05 12:25 AM

Yes, Purdey bolting and Purdey double underlugs are the same thing.

"If Clipped Fences (and/or the extended rib) are desireable why don't you see them on most DR's?"

Very funny. You ARE kidding, RIGHT??? You DO see rib extensions on most (virtually all) good quality DRs. What you don't see them on is today's cheap repros. With respect to sideclips, no, they're not particularly common on any doublegun, and they're redundant on a DR with a doll's head anyway.

"Are they hard to incorporate into a DR correctly?"

Not necessarily hard, just more expensive to make as more hand fitting must be done, which is why you don't see them on the cheap stuff.
------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bulldog563
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44558 - 22/12/05 12:32 AM

The comment about not seeing them was for Clipped fences and I just added the extended rib part at the end without rereading. Thanks for the info.

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: bulldog563]
      #44571 - 22/12/05 03:40 AM

What are chances of seeing more pictures of the Manton?

BB

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Peterb
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: banzaibird]
      #44584 - 22/12/05 05:28 AM

Remember that this Manton was not made by the Manton family. In this time they were mainly sold for India.

Manton was the man who brought English gunmaking out of the blacksmith shops. He was the beginning of fine English guns. His first apprentice was a fellow named Purdey who showed some promise. Manton's brother also was a gunmaker but not of the quality on Manton. Manton made the mistake of innovation when he should have stayed with flintlock shotguns (like Purdey when he left Manton to start his own gunworks). Manton experimented with various caplock guns (when they were under patent to others, unfortunately). This caused him legal problems and his business went under. His brother lasted longer. However, the name was sold (like Rigby now) and the name continued on into the 20th Century, I believe.



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500Nitro
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44593 - 22/12/05 06:09 AM


400NitroExpress

Very well put.

I agree with your comment
"I'm entirely ambivalent about the other common types.
Not to be contrarian, but I think I've probably seen more double guns with Greener cross-bolts
off-face than those with any other type of third fastener."

I was also going to make this comment abot Greener Cross Bolts
but decided to keep it simple but I am also very ambivalent about Greener Cross Bolts.

500 Nitro

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Marrakai
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44623 - 22/12/05 11:56 AM

The problem with the Greener Cross-bolt is that when a gun is tightened (and a good many vintage Brit and European guns which worked for a living have been, at least once in their life) the cross-bolt must be tightened too. Often this step is neglected (too hard) and the gun (which may have depended on a contribution from the crossbolt by design to remain tight) will then shoot loose relatively quickly.

That photo of the Manton-retailed Suhl .405 double is from Century Arms, however my good friend Rob B_ has one and I will attempt to post some additional photos of it soon. If I recall, the only camera available when he last had the rifle in Darwin was a really crappy digital, so they won't be brilliant! That gun is also illustrated in the Manton catalogue of the period, I could scan the relevant page and toss that up too if you're interested, banzaibird.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: Marrakai]
      #44663 - 23/12/05 12:13 AM

OK, here you go, banzaibird.



Here's a photo of the rifle in its case. I don't really go for the blue baize myself, but its got all the goodies and is very tidy. My friend had been looking for one like this for a long time: a genuine 'sleeper'.


The inset on this photo shows the german proofs. Although obviously 'continental' the gun was made up in the best British style!


With a doll's-head, cross-bolt, and side-clips, there's no way this gun will ever shoot loose!!


Here's a repro of the catalogue page:




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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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bulldog563
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: Marrakai]
      #44698 - 23/12/05 11:17 AM

How much does something like that go for?

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Peterb
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: bulldog563]
      #44701 - 23/12/05 11:53 AM

Clipped Fenses: You see them on a lot of high end doubles perhaps because they help a bit with side loads as sxs doubles are eccentric. However, I doubt they help much. In fact, many dislike them as for fast reloading, the sharp lil buggers can slice and dice you. This is another reason that top third fasteners are disliked by some because they can also get in the way of a fast reload. Still, clipped fenses like articulated triggers and other features are a sign of a well made gun.

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bulldog563
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: Peterb]
      #44703 - 23/12/05 12:29 PM

Kind of off topic but, does the Greener Cross Bolt come standard on the higher level Searcy's (deluxe, sidelock, underlever etc.) or do you have to ask for it as an option? Do you need the Greener Cross Bolt when you already have double purdey bolting? Any info would help.

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Marrakai
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: bulldog563]
      #44704 - 23/12/05 12:30 PM

I dunno what Rob paid for that double, bulldog, he was a bit cagey about the price. Just got that faint smile and far-away look and said "a lot!" When it comes to double rifles, condition is everything.

Saunders is (was?) asking US$9,500 for the one pictured earlier. Details here.



Mind you, prices for vintage doubles in Australia are generally much better than the US, and most of the good stuff is never advertised. In many cases, the seller knows who the buyer of a particular double will be for years before the actual sale!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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bulldog563
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: Marrakai]
      #44705 - 23/12/05 12:38 PM

Thats what I thought was going on. It sure is beautiful though.

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banzaibird
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: Marrakai]
      #44744 - 23/12/05 11:59 PM

Marrakai,

Thanks, I like the looks of the rifle. Do you have any idea what load the rifle is regulated for? It is just barely cut off at the bottom of the ad page.

The other thing that is interesting is it looks like it has a spade doll's head with a crossbolt. Not sure I've ever seen that before.

Thanks again,

BB

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bulldog563
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: Marrakai]
      #44767 - 24/12/05 11:14 AM

Anyone have experience with 405 win. Seems like it may be a marginal DG caliber...Less power then a 375 H&H. Nice rifle though.

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vigillinus
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: bulldog563]
      #44768 - 24/12/05 11:31 AM

The wisdom of a century is that .405 WCF will do for anything in North America including big bears and Theodore Roosevelt considered it perfect for lion.

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Marrakai
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: bulldog563]
      #44772 - 24/12/05 12:03 PM

banzaibird:
The .405 load listed in the Manton catalogue is a 300gr bullet over 52gr 'smokeless' powder for 2,204 fps MV and 3,235 ftlbs ME. It was cropped because my home scanner is only A4 and the catalogue is 'foolscap'.

The spade doll's-head with crossbolt is indeed fairly rare, which is why I posted it as an interesting 'extreme' example of a third fastening.

bulldog: there is a very good discussion of the .405 Winchester cartridge and its applicability for big game over on the 'Big Bore Rifles' forum: click here.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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bulldog563
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Re: Third Fastener? [Re: Marrakai]
      #44789 - 24/12/05 02:02 PM

I was just looking through Taylor's "African Rifles and Cartridges" and he says that the 405 should not be brought to Africa if you can find a more suitable caliber.... Basically says that it would be OK under ideal conditions but not when things don't go according to plan. Not his exact words but something like this. Nice rifle though.

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