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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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BillfromOregon
.333 member


Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas
.72 ML energy
      #43686 - 11/12/05 06:48 AM

Just for fun, I plugged an 835-grain .729 conical and a 545-grain .715 round ball into the fpe calculator at beartoothbullets.com and got these results:
For 4,008 fpe, you need to get the conical moving 1,470 fps, and 1,275 fps for 3,015 foot pounds.
To achieve 2,984 fpe with the round ball, it must be going 1,570 fps; 1,290 fps would yield 2,014 fpe.
Don't know if the higher velocities are achievable safely in the short-barreled Kodiak .72, but with Swiss, maybe.

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #43695 - 11/12/05 07:30 AM

Higher velocities ALWAYs come from higher pressure. If Swiss gives 1,200fps, it does so at the same or higher pressure than GOES when producing the same velocity.
: I expect a velocity of 950fps to 1,000fps might be given to the heavy slug, maybe not, at safe pressures for 'normal' shooting in the thin-walled double gun.
: The round ball may be pushed to 1,240fps to 1,300fps with safe loads, giving the same pressure as the slug's max load. The ft. lbs energy of both projectiles will be the same with identical pressures, as happens with ctg. rounds we are familiar with today. At a given pressure, all bullet weights, shapes and sizes produce the same ft. lbs. energy from THAT gun. Within game shooting ranges, that which gives the highest velocity will also give the flattest trajectory. Slugs take over in trajectory beyond hunting ranges as in over 200yds.
: I do dislike foot pounds energy as a representitive of killing power as it is a poor method of judging killing potential.
: I would rely on 3 dram loads (82gr.) for shooting game sized like deer out to 100yds., but prefer a bit more steam for flatter trajectory and thumping power on larger species.
: In large bore guns, the round ball will give the flattest trajectory and highest striking power for any given powder charge. This was proved back in 1850 is needs not to be re-proven today.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #64331 - 20/10/06 11:48 AM

Bill- in addition, I've seen several guys with the Kodiak running them up to 190gr.(or equivalent in Pyrodex or T-7) 2F. This should obtain in the relm of 1,550fps to 1,600fps.
: 191gr., BTW, was the 'heavy' 12 bore ctg. load for African double rifles. I used it in an early 20th century double shotun I converted to a smooth rifle. Sights do this conversion, along with, in my case, a shortening of the barrels to 26". It shot into 8" at 100 meters offhand using a combination of different wads to hold the ball in the centre of the bores.
: The standard African 12 bore load for any ctg. gun was 110gr.1F and a 545gr. round ball. This load, in a 12 bore ctg. developed, with Engish powder, 1,330fps. The same load in a 12 bore muzzleloader should run around 1,150fps to 1,200fps. It was favoured for lion, leopard and most close range protection use. Notice they only got 200fps for the addition of 80gr. 1F powder.
: Our powder, other than Swiss does not develope the same power at theirs did. I had to use our 2F with the 191gr. load to achieve 1,550fps. It was decisive on steel plates at 100 meters, even to breaking the chain holding up the 50 pound plate. A 7mm Rem Mag, with 175gr. factory loads, developing more theroetical 'power', barely made the plate swing. Hense, my dislike for fpe as having anything to do with 'power'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Dphariss
.300 member


Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: DarylS]
      #66803 - 11/12/06 05:18 PM

I agree.
Energy is just a number to talk about, it has little to do with effects on animals especially when talking BP firearms. Forsythe tells us that a hardened 15 gauge ball would shoot though an Indian elephant's head from side to side with "5 drachems" of powder. In "Pondoro" John Taylor related killing 8 Rhino and African elephant, "13 good bulls", with a percussion 10 gauge single smoothbore with 6 drams of BP (165 gr) and hardened balls. His remarks at the end of this story are something more people should read:
"Men with their modern breech-loaders and repeaters are all too much inclined to sneer at the muzzle-loader. But a good muzzle-loader, properly handled, is a very deadly and effective weapon--provided its limitations are fully realized."
He killed them all with lung shots, killed all he shot. I doubt that the ME of the load would impress the modern shooter as an "elephant gun" but it worked perfectly as he used it.

Dan

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: .72 ML energy [Re: Dphariss]
      #68121 - 27/12/06 12:36 PM

Right-on, Dan. The .300 mag and 7mm mag boys really get shaken up when they see what a 14 or 12 bore muzzleloading rifle or the big Sharps and Rolling Block rounds do to steel plates, in direct comparrison to their high speed pea shooters. There is no comparrison, on plates or on large animals either. The big balls & bullets have smashing power.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: DarylS]
      #72595 - 27/02/07 06:16 AM

Great gun.

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #72625 - 27/02/07 01:03 PM

"Higher velocities ALWAYs come from higher pressure."

I'm outstanded by how the pressure/velocity relationship is so misunderstood. Ghrame(sp) Wright goes a long way with his excellent pressure tests. The most interesting revelation came from the grooved bullets. Their lowered friction allowes them to move with less pressure - hence lower velocities, not more. Solids on the other hand will exit faster for exactly the opposite reason – more friction. North Fork goes into great detail on this subject.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: bonanza]
      #72643 - 27/02/07 09:40 PM

bonanza, I believe you are missing an important part of the pressure/velocity relationship in your post.

Grooved bullets will go slower than conventional bullets with the same powder charge.
..but grooved bullets will go faster than conventional bullets with the same chamber pressure!

(..as I understand it, anyway!)

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: Marrakai]
      #72656 - 28/02/07 12:29 AM

Marrakai,

You are correct. I left out "with the same powder charge".

So in a double rifle, to get a grooved bullet to regulate; you will need a bit more powder than a standard load to get the velocity (pressure) up.

The real advantage of the grooved monolithic bullet (northfork & GS Custom) is that they are gentle and won't raise the rifleings.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: bonanza]
      #77047 - 20/04/07 06:16 AM

Bill - with a hand held calculator, you can easily compute FPE for any load you wish.
: bullet velocity X bullet velocity X bullet weight(in grains) DIVIDED by 450240 = FPE Note the bullet diameter does not enter into this formula & that the formula greatly magnifies value given to velocity. By this formula, the .22-250 with 55gr. bullet at factory velocity of 3,650fps produces almost 200 fpe more than the .45/70 black powder load used in the 1870's. That .45/70 black powder/lead bullet was one of the preferred buffalo ctgs. for shooting those massive critters out to 300 and even 400 yards. Something is wrong with the math - it just doesn't add up.
: Anyway, there's the formula and sometimes it is fun to see what the numbers are. 450240 is a constant and converts weight in grains x vel squared to foot pounds of energy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #78683 - 15/05/07 09:49 AM

Not strictly black powder, but I have shot more than a few pigs with a 12 bore shotgun loaded with ball (as made by the Indian Ordnance Factories who manufacture this from British times) and though this is considered less powerful than a 30-06 round, it does seem to knock pigs down faster when you get to about 25 to 30 yards (maximum) of them.

I am going to buy a black powder ML rifle this year. Just haven't decided whether to buy the Pedersoli or the Traditions U/O. Yes, the latter is not traditional, but it might just be available with a slightly better discount.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Plains99
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 225
Loc: Dodge City, Kansas, USA
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #79690 - 01/06/07 12:23 AM

Mehulkamdar: I tested a Traditions O/U and I think you need to take a serious look at it. Stock design is excellent for heavy loads, balance is excellent, .209 primers are much more positive than #11 or musket caps on a Pedersoli. I also believe you can regulate heavy loads easier with the Traditions. Of course my problem with it is the same as the Pedersoli in that I don't know how the stocks on either will handle a steady diet of extremely heavy loads... but having used both... the Traditions gun is a lot easier on fillings, retinas, shoulders, etc.

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: Plains99]
      #79721 - 01/06/07 10:47 AM

209 primers? sounds like a gun I would refuse to touch.
: 99 - if you like it, great, but most people who already shoot BP are not interested in using an inline. The inlines are designed for first-time buyers who have no interest in muzzleloading shooting and hunting, but maily in lengthening a hunting season using a modern gun cross-dressed to load from the muzzle.
: If this bites, I'm sorry but it's the truth as I see it around me. 209 primers, plastic jackets around copper jackets and plastic powder. Bloody H$$ll.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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pjb
.224 member


Reged: 02/06/07
Posts: 18
Loc: South Carolina
Re: .72 ML energy [Re: DarylS]
      #79743 - 02/06/07 03:13 AM

Plains99. How did the Traditions O/U perform? Accuracy, regulated to what distance, etc?? I shoot revolvers mostly and only one black powder revolver at that, but I'm about ready to get a double and it's either an older CVA 50, Traditions O/U or the Kodiak .72. I keep trying to think of reasons not to get the Kodiak and just can't find any.

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