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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
.457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G
      #42519 - 29/11/05 05:14 PM

Any body know any thing about these rounds? Can the gun take the pressure?

Thanks,
Jason

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #42563 - 30/11/05 06:17 AM

Pressure is what you load it to.
: Original model 1886's (newer nickle steel) rifles handled the .450 Alaskan just fine with pressures well under 40,000CUP.
: Ballistics of a 400gr. bullet in the 1,900 to 2,000fps range, from a ctg. with 97gr. capacity "must" be below that pressure as the .45/70, according to Speer's manual, produce up to 1,870fps at only 28,000CUP, the SAMMI max. Interestingly enough, in their strong action data, they list the pressure at 35,000CUP at 2,132fps with the same 400gr. bullet.
; A friend of mine has the 18 1/2" Marlin stainless, and he gets 2,004 fps with Barnes original-type FN's using 49gr. Reloader#7, as listed by Speer for the lighter lever action rifles. His pressure MUST be higher than 28,000CUP due to the velocity he is getting in that short barrel. His extraction is easy, and the primers show no pressure signs of any sort(as they wouldn't at even 35,000CUP). The load appears to be quite safe for his rifle.
: Marlins are supposd to be good for over 40,000CUP, yet most data lists 28,000 as max. This, I don't quite understand. Perhaps it is due to the large size of the .45/70's case thinning the barrel's breech end in the chamber. Due to this, perhaps the .348's much larger case diameter is a poor choice for the Marlin. It's just fine, however for good M86's, especially the newer M71's- apparently as originally chambered up by Harold Johnson in Alaska (along with the .50 Alaskan).
: I chambered a Model 70 Winchester (post 64) for the .450 Alaskan, however I cut a new extractor groove and turned the rim down to .532 to fit the magnum bolt face. This round has a 97 gr. capacity whereas the .458 WM is listed at 90gr. Pressures being what you load, this round easily matches anyting the .458 Winchester can do, expecially with the overbuilt, especially strong .348 brass- IN A BOLT ACTION RIFLE. Due to being a slightly rebated rim round, I perfer to call this one the .458 Alaskan. I routinly load 400gr. and 350gr. bullets to 2,400fps for less than max loads in the bolt gun. I would not shoot these loads in a lever gun of any sort.
: Due to the .535" head dia. of the .348 brass, a Marlin probably wouldn't work very well due to it's action width being quite narrow and the resulting skinny barrel breech if chambered for this fat round.
; Picture: .450 Alaskan and .458 Alaskan.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ovis
.300 member


Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 216
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #42622 - 30/11/05 04:11 PM

colorado,

Check out www.wildwestguns.com. There should be plenty of info there on the cartridge and the Marlins they convert. Hope this helps.

I just tried this link and it didn't work unless I typed it in.....the site is up and current.

Joe

--------------------
"Where there's a hobble, there's hope."

Edited by ovis (30/11/05 04:18 PM)

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Charles_Helm
.333 member


Reged: 09/11/05
Posts: 337
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: ovis]
      #42643 - 01/12/05 12:10 AM

In reply to:

I just tried this link and it didn't work unless I typed it in.....the site is up and current.




I think you had an extra period. Let's try this:

Wild West Guns

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

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ovis
.300 member


Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 216
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #42659 - 01/12/05 05:41 AM

C_H,

Thank you sir; you're a gentleman and a scholar while I'm web impaired.

Joe

--------------------
"Where there's a hobble, there's hope."

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: ovis]
      #42663 - 01/12/05 06:34 AM


: Obviously, the .348 case, blown to Improved will fit in the Marlins. I wonder if any crow-bar work is needed. Perhaps not much, now that I think on it. The rim dia is almost identical to the 45-70.
: The extra recoil might require different attachment of the mag. tube.
: The extra capacity shows with the improved ballistics they got.
: I had a 50 Alaskan at one time in a single shot rifle, a wonderful shooter and loads are available in the new Hodgdon yearly hand book. With cast bullets and tang sight, I got 1-1/2" at both 100 and 200 yards for 5 shot groups. My best bullet weight was 520 Lyman and 550gr.RCBS cast bullets in a 24" twist McGowen barrel.
: This Big .50 is a potent round and the one I'd barrel up as the .458 version is only 100 to 150fps better than the .45-70. The .50 will give added diameter and velocity with deeply penetrating, heavy bullets. 50-70 dies will work, and are available from www.trackofthewolf.com . If full elngth sizing of the brass is required, CH4D sells .50 Alaskan dies for around $89.00 I think.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: ovis]
      #42678 - 01/12/05 10:06 AM

This is where I'm shipping the gun off too for the conversion. Just wondering if anybody has real experience with these fellows and the round. Bufflo Bore ammo is very addiment that only certain loads of theirs can be used in lever guns including modern Marlin 1895's. When I bought the gun I really thought about the 450 Marlin round, But the lack of ammo options in the wilds of Alaska and Africa convenced me not to get it.

When they convert to a 50 cal Alaskan is the gun rebarrled or re-bored?

Thanks,
Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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ovis
.300 member


Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 216
Loc: Homer, Alaska
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #42691 - 01/12/05 03:30 PM

colorado,

WWG does great work......especially if you don't have to deal w/the guy out front in the shop in person.......his attitude is legendary in AK.......their lever guns are very , very, good. I have no experience w/their .457Mag round......I have a standard Marlin GG in .47-70 but am going to sell it as I never use it anymore......if you're into lever guns, WWG is where it's at.

Joe

--------------------
"Where there's a hobble, there's hope."

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #42723 - 02/12/05 05:12 AM

I would assume the barrel would be replaced on a .50. I would hope they don't use too slow a twist as best accuracy comes from something faster than 28", as in 24". Shilo and C. Sharps Arms use 36" which ar OK for hunting, I guess, but the accuracy really lacks compared to 24" twists. Green Mountain makes a Winchester taper for .50 cal. with a 24" twist. They also make it in the original Winchester .50-110 twist of 54", which is too slow actually, even for light 300gr. bullets - more of a round ball twist. One must be careful to get the faster twist. The resulting accuracy is a nice bonus.
: Another bonus with the .50, is it will give real world killing power with Black Powder if desired or needed. The case will hold 80gr. easily and a 520gr. bullet.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: DarylS]
      #44445 - 20/12/05 03:40 PM

After much thought, I've decided on the .457 Alaskan conversion. It just makes sense. The .50 Alaskan is powerfull but lack of good bullets and brass off the shelf preclude it. With the .457 you can still use 45-70 rounds and shoot 2 3/4" .410 shotgun rounds. This makes the 1895G truely a great bush gun. Wild West claim 3758 FPE at 1900 FPS, enough to kill anything on the plant. Also if things work out I will be getting a Pedersoli Kodiak Mark IV in 45-70 and having two guns in the same round makes life easier.

Jason



--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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416rigby
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Port Angeles, Washington USA
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #45027 - 28/12/05 06:54 AM

A friend of mine at work has one of WWG's Marlin 457's and he loves it. I've seen a couple of their guns and the work seems to be very good, at least on the ones I handled.

--------------------
"Life's too short to hunt with an ugly gun"

U.S. Coast Guard, retired

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #45107 - 29/12/05 04:21 AM

I am somewhat perplexed as to the use of the "Alaskan" designation. "Alaskan" means the use of a .348 Winchester casing as originally named by Harold Johnson of Johnson Kenai Rifles. He used this naming in the .450 Alaskan & .50 Alaskan using the .348WW case. It is not a standard .45/70 or longer standard .505" base dia brass. .348's are .545" in base measurement, not .505" as are .45/70's, therefore they cannot be fired in .450 Alaskan chambers. That would be dangerous as the .45/70's are .040" undersize in the head dia, even though the rims are the same dia.
: Is the round you speak of the .457 Wild West ctg?
: Designations of wildcats are quite meaningful, but easily & wrongfully misplaced on other rounds.
: I'm not trying to cause any trouble - just to get the proper names used to limit misunderstandings.
: If the maker of these big bore Marlins is using the Alaskan name because it sounds 'cool' for advertizing, it's being used improperly and well, that's most unfortunate - shame on them - IF, that's the case here.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #45126 - 29/12/05 11:23 AM

Beats me, check out their web site www.wildwestguns.com, they have a .50 Alaskan as a rechamber round in the 1895G.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .457 Alaskan in a Marlin 1895G [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #45338 - 31/12/05 05:37 AM

A buddy of mine has a M95 Marlin with 18-1/2" bl. He's using 49.0gr. Re#7 with a 400gr. Barnes .032" jacket Flat nose. It is listed in Speers manual with their 400gr. as being max at 28,000CUP and delivering 1,828fps. His rifle delivers an amazing 2,004 to 2,007 fps with this load, yet shows absolutely no signs of developing excess pressure. In his rifle, it is a good powerful working load. This is the same ballistics as shown for the .457 Wild West magnum's 2.2" case. In a 22" or 24" M95 barrel, this velocity should easily be achieved, showing the 1/10" longer case just isn't needed. (unless you are selling something)
; For even deeper penetration, the Speer 350gr. bullet, developed for deep penetration in a .458 WinMag can be sued in the .45/70 Marlin for in excess of 2,100fps and probably 2,200fps as shown for the 2.2" case. The crimp groove is nt placed properly for use in the Marlin, so the bras needs to be shortened slightly, .165" to 1.935" in length. This will not change the ballistics nor the capacity over normal 400gr. bullets as the base of the bullet comes to the same depth in the case AFTER shortening as the 400gr. bullets take up normally. This, I have measured out to be correct. It is one possibility for the round. On the other hand, the 350gr. Hornady FN or RN as I used, at 2,270fps in my .458 2", penetrated a Moose's skull & brain, then 3 vertebrae and exited 1/2 way down the Bull's neck. The range was 95yds, showing the 350gr. RN Hornady to be a tough bullet as well, and suitable for normal loading in the 2.1" case.
: I just don't believe the extra 1/10" is necesssary, nor does it actually benefit the Marlin. What this all comes down to is using the proper powder and Reloader #7 seems to be the one for sue in the Marlin. The picture below shows a 350gr Speer, whole and sectioned to show jacket thickness.
: For those who are impressed by numbers, my buddies load produces an approximate 2,020fps actual Muzzle velocity (+16fps for screen spacing at 20') for 3,624ft.lbs energy. As silly as these types of numbers are, an extra 80fps developes another 292 ft. lbs. for 3,916ft.lbs., yet makes no difference on the game being shot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/350gr.jpg

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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