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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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45s_save_lives
.224 member


Reged: 12/11/05
Posts: 34
Loc: west by god virginia, currentl...
speed of shooting
      #41566 - 15/11/05 01:07 PM

Something I saw on TV recently made me think of the age old argument of which is better to use, a bolt or a double. It seems to me that the main argument of the bolt crowd is longer range accuracy and more rounds "on tap". Now back to what I saw. I saw Craig Boddington and Wayne Van Zwoll (both highly experienced hunters and editors for outdoor magazines)having a competition of who could shoot 3 targets(small pumpkins) at 50 yds. Wayne had a bolt gun and Craig had a T/C single shot. They only fired three rounds in which Craig was MUCH faster. he was reloading from his belt which probably help 20 rds. SO it seems to me that the double is not only faster but also eliminates the "holds more rounds" theory, as a belt holds much more ammo than any gun. As for longer range, I hardly think that applies to dangerous game. As Jeff Cooper said "it is simply irresponsable to open hostilities at distances that would require match winning efforts". Opinions??

--------------------
Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #41573 - 15/11/05 02:08 PM

THe real issue is how many well-aimed shots you can get off as the animal closes from 15 yards to zero yards. In general, the number runs from 0 to 2.

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #41586 - 15/11/05 03:40 PM

I tend to agree with 500grains on this speed shooting issue because one or two well placed shots up close count for a lot more when actually protecting yourself than a speed shoot on 3 pumpkins at 50 yards. Frank Hamer, the Texas Ranger who hunted down Bonnie and Clyde, was in enough gunfights in his career to have had to shoot over 60 bad guys...he always said to take your time and AIM no matter what the bad guy is doing.

Also my guess is that if you whack a charging animal that isn't on your license (or for that matter a person) from 50 yards, no court or jury will consider that self defense.

I also suspect that nobody on this forum has seen either of those guys shoot, and some guys on this forum probably have talent that is quite a bit beyond either of those guys.

Having written articles for magazines, I noticed that manuscripts get edited and frequently sound nothing like what was submitted...also writers are frequently handed a topic and told to do it, and a lot of them will do it exactly as the editor requests. Also when you see products mentioned in an article, look at the ads in the publication that month and the next month...

Richard

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foxfire
.375 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 511
Loc: Long Island N.Y.,
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #41613 - 15/11/05 11:02 PM

I would think this to be a no contest issue. The double rifle never leaves it's position. The hands, face and eyes remain exactly where they were pointed and fire for a second time almost exactly like the first time.
I recently went on my first hunt with my double rifle. Though it's a small caliber it aimed well. Two one shot kills out to 140 yards and when my friend's boar was on the run after being shot by him 2 times I fired both barrels at a fleeing boar and connected both times.
I love my double and probably will be selling some bolt actions to buy more doubles.

--------------------
No good deed goes unpunished

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45s_save_lives
.224 member


Reged: 12/11/05
Posts: 34
Loc: west by god virginia, currentl...
Re: speed of shooting [Re: rgp]
      #41675 - 16/11/05 10:55 AM

RGP, for the record Craig Boddington is widley regarded as one of the most experienced hunters, in africa or anywhere for that matter, in the entire WORLD. I am amazed that you have never heard of him. He has written many good books on the subject of hunting and safari hunting in particular, as well as many books on caliber/rifle selection. You should look up some of his work I think you'd enjoy it. And Dr. Wayne Van Zwoll is not exactly new to the hunting game either. Also since we are talking about how many shots you can take at a charging animal, then as I stated already the "advantage" of a bolt gun's capacity is null and void. Anyways a double would always be my choice for many of the same erasons people posted in reply to my post, and simply because I like them. Anyways good shootin:) P.S. 500grains, I dont know about you but I would call being able to hit little pumpkins at 50 yds. offhand as pretty careful/well aimed. They were not simply shooting as fast as they could they were hitting the targets. I figured you guys would like the post, after all this is a double rifle forum.

--------------------
Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

Edited by 45s_save_lives (16/11/05 11:00 AM)

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k80
.333 member


Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #41690 - 16/11/05 01:18 PM

One of the first things you realize
as a competitive shooter in a speed event.
Slow and hit is faster than quick and
miss.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: speed of shooting [Re: foxfire]
      #41701 - 16/11/05 02:30 PM


foxfire

Re "The double rifle never leaves it's position"

A bolt action doesn't need to leave the shoulder.
If shooting standing offhand, I relaod without
removing the gun from the shoulder.

All it took was a bit of practice at the range
and not demounting the gun became second nature.

With bigger calibres (404 and up), I of cource have to
wait for the recoil and bring barrel back down.

500 Nitro

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #41705 - 16/11/05 02:45 PM

45 SL,

Not trying to give you a hard time at all. I am just commenting that the pumpkin test is not representative of the type of situation where a person needs to defend himself from DG with a rifle.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41899 - 19/11/05 03:05 AM

In reply to:

Re "The double rifle never leaves it's position"

A bolt action doesn't need to leave the shoulder.
If shooting standing offhand, I relaod without
removing the gun from the shoulder.




500NITRO, is absolutely correct! In a tight spot you better not remove the bolt rifle from your shoulder to work it, or you will likely be late for the second shot on something like a lion. However, the difference between the two where the second shot is concerned, the bolt rifle man has to remove his shooting hand from the trigger group to cycle the bolt, recover from recoil and then get back on the trigger, and on target, for the second shot. The double shooter has only to recover from recoil, and get back on target, with simple change of trigger.

In the case of Boddingtoin's test, there were three shots fired. This is not imposible even on a chargeing lion, as many hits cause the lion the fall, turn, jump, and bite at the empact area on his body, giveing both riflemen a little more time to sort things out. Boddington, did this test with a single shot against a bolt rifle, and won,the double would be even better for the third, and FOURTH shots!

500grains is also more than correct in his 0-2 shots at bite me distance,in most cases however!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #41903 - 19/11/05 05:54 AM

In reply to:

RGP, for the record Craig Boddington is widley regarded as one of the most experienced hunters, in africa or anywhere for that matter, in the entire WORLD. I am amazed that you have never heard of him. He has written many good books on the subject of hunting and safari hunting in particular, as well as many books on caliber/rifle selection. You should look up some of his work I think you'd enjoy it. And Dr. Wayne Van Zwoll is not exactly new to the hunting game either. Also since we are talking about how many shots you can take at a charging animal, then as I stated already the "advantage" of a bolt gun's capacity is null and void. Anyways a double would always be my choice for many of the same erasons people posted in reply to my post, and simply because I like them. Anyways good shootin:) P.S. 500grains, I dont know about you but I would call being able to hit little pumpkins at 50 yds. offhand as pretty careful/well aimed. They were not simply shooting as fast as they could they were hitting the targets. I figured you guys would like the post, after all this is a double rifle forum.



45's,

I have heard of Mr. Boddington as well as Mr. Van Zwoll. I merely stated that I think several members of the Nitro Express forum are probably able to shoot considerably better than either of those guys.

Richard

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: speed of shooting [Re: rgp]
      #41907 - 19/11/05 06:53 AM


rgp

"I have heard of Mr. Boddington as well as Mr. Van Zwoll. I merely stated that I think several members of the
Nitro Express forum are probably able to shoot considerably better than either of those guys."

That is one hell of a big statement !!!

I might think of myself as a good shot but I would not like to put myself anywhere
near the league of Craig Boddington - who has had a hell of alot more military
and hunting training than me.

I generally think that, however good someone is, there is always someone better.
In addition, with so many different firears out there, someone may be good at a
particular firearm / type of shooting but not many people are very good across
a whole range of guns and types of shooting.

I know a few people who are good at Target shooting with a few types of rifles
but not very good in the field with game.

Finally, all it takes is practice at the range.

500 Nitro

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27022
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41909 - 19/11/05 07:18 AM

I might add that it takes practise from hunting positions and on moving targets or game. Many people think they are practising when merely shooting bullseye targets from the bench. While this teaches trigger control, sight aquisition, breathing and follow through, it doens't teach offhand, kneeling, pone or standing, kneeling or prone rest postions, all of which are vital to being a good overall shot - game and target.
: I've heard guys say "I can't shoot well on targets, but I'm a good game shot". What they are saying, is they don't have good trigger control, & can't hold worth a damn with repeat shooting, all of which is important in the field.
: They are relying on a Moose or Elk's almost 3 foot kill zone to hit the liver, lungs, neck base, shoulder or spine.
: I'd suggest that if there is a local 3-position shooting team, to try it. This one separates men from the boys and teaches most shooting positions. To be a master in that game, is quite an achievement.
: This type of shooting is where Boddington and others with his type of experience got their start on develolping their abilities.
: Those who shoot real, side hammer flint and percussion muzzleloading rifles and do well in competition, are generally much better shots than any who don't. We've proven this time and time again when Turkey Shoot time comes, that involves more than bench shooting, and in actual challenges against hunters with modern equipment.
: 500 Nitro is spot-on with his statements. There is more to this game than buying a rifle, having it bore sighted at the store, buying a box of ammo and going hunting, as many people do, every year.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: speed of shooting [Re: DarylS]
      #41913 - 19/11/05 08:54 AM


Darryl,


I am actually a far better shot in the field and at moving / running game
than I am at a target - particularly at 100 Yards with a Double Rifle
or Bolt Action. I also find it hard to get motivated shooting an 8" Black Bull
on a target !!!

Speed and Accuracy
With Bolt actions, to simulate a running target (not many ranges have a running
target), set up 3 separate targets at 25 or 50 yards, about 20 ft apart.

With a 30/06, 308 BA Rifle and below), you should be able to fire
4 well aimed shots (2 into the first, one in each of the others) at the targets
in 10 seconds and get a kill zone shot wth each.

For 338 and above, it takes longer as more recoil to recover from.

I would suggest anyone trying it to practise slowly on the accuracy side
first and practice relading without demounting the gun from the shoulder
and then gradually increase the speed you shoot until you get away 4 kill
shot in 10 seconds.

500 Nitro

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41915 - 19/11/05 10:56 AM

500Nitro

I owned part of an operation where Boddington was Bear Hunting. He is an average shot, at best.. I have also heard the same statement from a Cous Deer Guide in AZ. I would suggest he is average to below average of the people that I have hunted with.

I have shot the three position competition with Wayne on numerous occasions. He has good days and bad days like everyone but he is a much better rifle shot than Boddington.

Incidentally they are good friends and, despite some people's opinion, Boddington is a decent fellow.

Don't give too much credit to Military Shooting Lessons.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: speed of shooting [Re: mickey]
      #41919 - 19/11/05 11:27 AM

Gentlemen,
It does not matter how fast or good these other shooters are.
The only thing that matters is how fast and good YOU are.

Also what matters is the reliability of your equipment.

In a close encounter of the "dangerous kind", doubles are much more reliable. It only takes one jam, misfeed, improper bolt manupilitation, and you are dead, or seriously injured.

And how good you are at "gun handling", especially under stress, can save you or doom you, no matter what type of rifle you have.

I know I much prefer a double rifle when hunting Dangerous Game.

When comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges,
I have not found a significant difference in field accuracy between Iron sighted big bores or scope sighted medium bores, double vs bolt rifles.

I have taken game with my scoped double to a little over 300 yards.

In ALL other caragories the double rifle seems superior to me.

Until you "bolt rifle trash people" use a double enough to really know and under stand it, do not be so critical.
Don't Hate.

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: speed of shooting [Re: NE450No2]
      #41931 - 19/11/05 03:53 PM

[Originally posted by 500nitro:

I might think of myself as a good shot but I would not like to put myself anywhere
near the league of Craig Boddington - who has had a hell of alot more military
and hunting training than me.



If you read his articles, you will find that he feels a rifle shoots quite well if it does 1.75 to 2 inches at 100 yards, while many of feel that such a rifle (or the shooter) is ready for the junk heap. That's a bit revealing to me.

But if we are talking DG, what really matters is how well a guy does under pressure at 10 yards. Or less.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 500grains]
      #41934 - 19/11/05 04:04 PM


mickey

Thanks for the info. He has still shot alot more game
worlwide than me and in many more situations so far be
it for me to trash him.

500grains
I agree 1.75 - 2" at 100 yards is not acceptable and I think
I know the book he wrote that in. Interestingly, I just read an
article by him on accuracy in one of the US magazines and
I think you will find he has change his ideas abit. I also think
that the standard factory guns have become alot more accurate
than the ones in the 60's and 70's.

In regards to
"But if we are talking DG, what really matters is how well a
guy does under pressure at 10 yards."

And that's so true and where practice at the range and gun handling
skills come into it.

I am glad I had practised alot as when it happened to me it was
instinctive what to do and it just happened. Not that I would wish
a charge on anyone.

500 Nitro

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: speed of shooting [Re: 500grains]
      #41935 - 19/11/05 04:27 PM

45's, I apologize if I sounded blunt or rude earlier.

I really find it interesting that a breakopen single shot was faster than a bolt for three shots...the only thing that has me wondering is if Thompson/Center was an advertiser that sponsored the production because products selected for use in outdoors shows and magazine articles are not selected at random and the T/C Encore may have been the featured product. I have no doubt whatsoever that a double rifle would be a lot faster than the bolt.

I tend to trust people posting on this forum though more than I trust a magazine or a film production. It seems as though in magazines and videos all products are great no matter what the test results are.

Richard

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