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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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jep21
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/05
Posts: 11
Used double rifle ... used double trouble!
      #40573 - 04/11/05 01:24 PM

Here are a couple of threads I started on AR about a recent used double rifle purchase. NitroX suggested I share the experience on this forum. Hopefully some of you will learn from my mistakes. Thanks for any other insights and advice.

Thanks,
Emory
1st thread

Follow up thread

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: jep21]
      #40574 - 04/11/05 01:25 PM

Could you tell use the make and caliber of the rifle, and the name/city/state of the person who sold the rifle to you?

Thank you.

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jep21
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/05
Posts: 11
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: 500grains]
      #40578 - 04/11/05 01:41 PM

I've tried dodging this for a while hoping Seller might want to see if we could settle. That's probably not likely given the amount of time since his phone and e-mail seemed to quit working.

Think if I were a reader I'd be getting tired of my "run-around". So, it's a pretty nice looking WR 450/400 3 1/4. Seller is from Brunswick, GA. No name for now.


Thanks,
Emory

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: jep21]
      #40582 - 04/11/05 02:15 PM

Thank you for the information. I almost made an offer to a Georgian fellow named Ernest Gilbert on a 450-400. Hope it's not the same gentleman.

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: 500grains]
      #40585 - 04/11/05 02:27 PM

Wasn't JudgeG's a Coggie?


Emory

How much are you into the repair and the rifle so far? Am I right in assuming that the exterior is in good condition?

Has JJ determined if the chambers are expanded or did someone just butcher a re chamber?

Is this by any chance a BP Magnum Express rifle that has been used to fire smokeless loads? This could account for it being off the face so much and the expanded chambers.




--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: mickey]
      #40589 - 04/11/05 02:36 PM

At one point JudgeG had a C&H .475. Maybe he still has it, I do not know.

But after the Russ Taylor buffalo hunt which JudgeG accompanied, he came back and offered his WR .450-400 for sale right away. Said he needed the money to cover the unpaid expenses Russ left behind. But it seems Russ did not shoot many animals... Also, the judge wounded and lost a buffalo with his WR double on that hunt.

And if I recall, JudgeG wanted $15K for the rifle. I never saw it, as I was advised by a person who knew him that the offer I was thinking of was too low for him to consider.

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jep21
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/05
Posts: 11
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: mickey]
      #40602 - 04/11/05 03:31 PM

Mickey,

The exterior is fine but there was a re-black that seemed to be done well with no softening due to polishing of the letters/engraving. Very little case coloring left. I actually haven't asked JJ what the charge is at this point for just the rehinging and probably the rounds he loaded for the firing test that didn't happen. Need to follow-up on that. I was anticipating about $1k total if he had to adjust and re-solder the barrels. Both Simon Clode at WR and JJ thought that would likely be required given the vertical displacement my groups exibited. Had that worked, I would have had no real regrets about the purchase - even with the extra cost.

Regards,
Emory

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: jep21]
      #40617 - 04/11/05 06:29 PM

jep21

Read your posts. Sorry to hear story.
I think it's low what he did.

It's a pity you didn't have a 3 day cooling off period
but your trip would have hindered that anyway.

2ndly, I think maybe it's a case of buyer beware
when bying 2nd hand goods without checking person ?

FYI, I had the opposite happen to me - called a guy
re a DR, agreed on a price but he wanted money before
sending gun to a dealer here for me to look at. So as a
condition of paying before shipping, he agreed to a
3 days sale or return. (Gun would take 4 - 5 days to get to me)

Anyway, I paid and he sent the gun but before 2 days had
passed he called to say he wanted it back - I assume a higher offer.
I stood my ground and said that he had made me pay up front so
I wanted to see gun first.

The long and the short of it was the gun was a twice as good as
described - superb enrgaving, colour case hardening, great bore
- ONLY problem was a lifting Quarter Rib but in general it was
worth twice as much as I had paid.

So I told him I'd keep it and I still have it 4 year later.

Anyway, good luck with yous.

500 Nitro

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #40631 - 05/11/05 02:03 AM

I hope I don't get in trouble for this. This is a testimony to what a up and up guy JJ is. When I went to his shop to "buy" a gun I wanted one of their used British examples. He steered me away from the ones in my price range and showed me the defects in each one and why they were not worth owning. I bought a new Chapuis from him and he said they will warranty it for life.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: jep21]
      #40645 - 05/11/05 03:25 AM

In reply to:

Here are a couple of threads I started on AR about a recent used double rifle purchase. NitroX suggested I share the experience on this forum. Hopefully some of you will learn from my mistakes. Thanks for any other insights and advice.

Thanks,
Emory
1st thread

Follow up thread



Folks, there seems to be two different accounts of what actually happened here! I suggest you read both sides on all strings on this subject before makeing much comment! I deleted all my comments on both the strings at Accurate Reloading!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #40650 - 05/11/05 03:41 AM

As the seller has always made a big point about his honour and reputation I would think if a double was sold with major pre-existing issues, it would be able to be returned with full refund.

Sometimes honour and commercial terms are not bedfellows.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: NitroX]
      #40660 - 05/11/05 04:54 AM

In reply to:

Sometimes honour and commercial terms are not bedfellows.





It also usually seems that those who proclaim their own honor, honosty and integrity as forcefully as the person in question, are often lacking in those exact qualities...

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: NitroX]
      #40666 - 05/11/05 05:05 AM

Good God, what a mess.


I've seen this kind of thing go down *online and on some forum or another* before.

What we all -except for the buyer and seller- are missing is having been there for the whole conversation.

At this point I feel sorry for the both of them.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: bonanza]
      #40670 - 05/11/05 05:48 AM

Emory:

Bonanza is quite right. To be fair, I've seen George Caswell do the same thing many times. Champlin backs everything they sell, even the used stuff. I've known both guys a long time and would rather deal with them than anyone else in the business.

I'm very sorry to hear of your trevails. I wonder if it is possible that the chambers are oversized because they have been honed to remove pits or perhaps gas cutting due to case splits? In the early days, the Eley Bros. Cordite stuff was terrible about this and quite a few doubles suffered this damage. I'm not second guessing J. J., he is damned good, I'm just wondering aloud.

Please don't think that I'm kicking you when you're down, but I sure wish you had gotten J. J. involved on the front end. He can't do you near as much good after the fact. Buying a used double rifle, even if it is your first double, doesn't have to be risky. Even among experienced double rifle shooters, very few are competent to do this on their own hook. A double rifle is like no other type and, when you're buying your first one, you can't possibly fully appreciate what you're getting into. That's why you stick to established methodology. The first step is finding a gun that you think you might like. The second step is having it sent to a fully qualified gunmaker (notice I didn't say gunSMITH) like J. J. for the comprehensive (disassembly and shooting) evaluation that you should make your purchase agreement, in writing, contingent upon. Of course, you've got to get this done within the agreed return period, so you can't dally, and the usual three days doesn't cut it. Insist on at least five days in the written agreement and try to get more. If the seller balks at these terms, or at reducing them to writing, run.

Best of luck with this. I hope you get it resolved.
--------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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srose
.300 member


Reged: 30/09/05
Posts: 139
Loc: North Carolina
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: jep21]
      #40675 - 05/11/05 06:08 AM

Been there done that several times. Not quite as bad though. My first was a Sercy 470 that was supposed to shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yds. Shot two 2 inch groups 14 inches apart. Was going on a trip to Africa in a couple of months and needed a gun bad. Called Butch Searcy and explained what I had. He bent over backwards to help me. Sent gun to him and he reregulated the gun twice. All I had to pay was shipping. Thats customer service.
Had a 500 NE that was supposed to shoot 3 inch groups that shot 2 feet low and 3 feet apart. Yes thats FEET. Sent it to JJ at Champlin and he regulated it twice. It now shoots great.
Bought a T Bland that was supposed to be a 375 2.5 inch and someone had rechambered it to 375 flanged mag. Sent it back and they sent me a Merkel for a great price.
Bought another in 40-82 win that cross fired 14 inches and would lock gun up with light loads. Sent it back for refund, which I got promptly.
Have had problems with new Chapuis but seller sent me a new gun right away.
I guess this is the way it goes. Wish people were honest when you pay the kind of money you do for a double.
Don't buy junk and make sure seller will let you shoot gun and have in writing that you can send gun back for refund.
I still love doubles and I'LL probably get a few more dogs before I quit.
Sorry you had the problems you did but glad to know I'm not the only one.

Sam

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: NitroX]
      #40974 - 08/11/05 02:48 PM

In reply to:

As the seller has always made a big point about his honour and reputation I would think if a double was sold with major pre-existing issues, it would be able to be returned with full refund.

Sometimes honour and commercial terms are not bedfellows.





You are absolutely right Nitro, that is if the seller "KNEW" there was anything wrong with the rifle when he shipped it! It has come to light, lately, that the seller doesn't do his own loading, and the buyer broke down some of the loads,sent with the rifle,after the damage was done,(wrong time) and found them to be inconsistant in powder weight. As much as 4 full grains high in two cases.

I'm not saying the seller is not responsible for loads he commissioned, but the fact that the chambers may have been damaged after it left the seller's hands, indicates to me this is not an HONOUR issue on either party, but a screw-up on the part of the loader. Since the rifle was OK when sent, It stands to reason the seller is reluctant to take the the word of the buyer that he didn't damage the rifle himself, and I believe he did, but with the loads sent by the seller. It IS a mess, but I see no intentional intent to rid himself of a damaged rifle,by the seller. this was simply the exercise of poor judgement on the part of both parties! The seller for trusting someone else to load his ammo, and the buyer for useing unknown handloads in a $14K double rifle. Both are at fault, but neither is at fault because of any dishonour, but poor judgement, IMO.

The thing that angers me is, everyone being willing to trash a person without all the info.

I've already pulled out of this fiasco once before, because I'm not willing to join the shark like feeding frenzy ,out for blood. I got attacked for my trouble.

All I'm asking is, no matter who is found guilty, I don't believe the dicision should be made here in these kangaroo courts! That is why I suggest folks withhold makeing public judgements till they know the facts, and nobody knows that except the two parties involved. The diagnosis of what caused the damage is a thing we should be determining, not guilt, or innocence, or honour or dishonour! Even they may not know yet,what caused this, but they should get together and confront the loader with the bad loads. I still do not think this is an Honour issue, but an empass because of lack of knowledge, and poor judgement on both sides! It is a sorry state of afairs, and I feel for both sides, especially with a lench mob banging on the cell door!

I'll leave you to your feeding now!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #40977 - 08/11/05 03:21 PM

Mac,

After reading all the posts and thinking it through, I suspect that the rifle had bulged chambers when JudgeG first took posession of it from Mr. Moss. The bulged chambers evidenced themselves as "tight" chambers to both JudgeG and to Mbogo375. But nobody did a chamber cast until JJ got the rifle when the cause of the chamber tightness was discovered.

As for the problems which Emory had with regulation, I have no explanation, only speculation. So here is the speculation. Perhaps a TuffPak is not the best way to transport a double. Any possibility of damage to the solder or rib while in the TuffPak, either on the way to Africa or on the way back, which would be the cause of the regulation problem??

_________________

srose,

You have had your fair share of trouble with doubles! If I had that run of luck, I would get a bolt gun and stick with it.

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #40981 - 08/11/05 03:26 PM

In reply to:

The diagnosis of what caused the damage is a thing we should be determining, not guilt, or innocence, or honour or dishonour!



Mac

This is why I started a new thread. I would like to know, for selfish reasons, as I would not like to be in either parties position.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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mbogo375
.275 member


Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: 500grains]
      #41011 - 08/11/05 06:01 PM

500 grains,

You are correct that I did not do a chamber cast (since I was mainly assisting in getting fired brass to send for the dies to be made, and in any case it would have been presumptious of me to insist on a chamber cast on someone else's rifle). I agree some bulges can be very difficult to see visually, however, a good bit of metal would have had to have been displaced into the chamber to cause the tight chamber feel that was present. With that much distortion I would have expected sticky extraction. I suppose that the pressure could have been low enough for the brass to resist expanding into the bulged area, but this seems somewhat unlikely.

Jim

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Rusty
.333 member


Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Used double rifle ... used double trouble! [Re: mbogo375]
      #41022 - 08/11/05 08:49 PM

"The ounce of prevention" in this matter would have been to have the rifle sent to JJ to begin with.

I am very sorry for Emory's and Ernest's problems in this matter.

I do not know Emory, however he lives in the Houston area and since I do as well, I look forward to meeting and sharing experiences with him.

I do know Ernest. I know a little about double rifles. Bless Ernest's heart he knows even less.
As stated above I don't think he ever knew there was anything wrong with the rifle.

There are only a few folks that I personally know who could, upon inspection, know what to look for on a used double. Ernest ain't one of those guys and by the time line involved in this tale of woe, neither is Emory.

For those of you who read this, let this be a stern warning. The road to used double rifle heaven is heavily mined. If you do not know the way find someone to lead you. People like JJ, 400 NitroExpress, and others on this forum and AR can guide you. All you need do is ask.
There are no dumb questions.

Once again the above is just my opine.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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