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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
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Loc: Alaska
Does the barrel to fence look right to you?
      #394592 - 29/11/25 02:27 AM

suppose to be a Cogswell & Harrison The Victor No. 2 Double Rifle

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450_EXPRESS
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Reged: 04/01/09
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: casper50]
      #394593 - 29/11/25 03:09 AM

With my limited experience compared to others here, they look a bit short in heigth, how are the firing pin holes in the standing breech compared to the center of the barrels/cartridge base?

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casper50
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: 450_EXPRESS]
      #394594 - 29/11/25 03:40 AM

Don't know. Going off of auction photos

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DarylS
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: casper50]
      #394595 - 29/11/25 04:51 AM

Appears smaller "gauge" barrels fittedto the action. Rather obvious, I thought.
Who did it and why, unknown.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: DarylS]
      #394601 - 29/11/25 06:38 AM

Ugly.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4630
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: NitroX]
      #394602 - 29/11/25 07:03 AM

Certainly looks....just wrong!

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3828
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #394608 - 29/11/25 06:28 PM

It's not the first Scott-built vintage hammerless double rifle I've seen with the barrels fitted to the standing breech in that manner.

Came damn close to buying a crystal-indicator sidelock Climax black-powder double rifle that looked a lot like this one many years ago.
It was definitely made that way.

Having said that, this one is a bit "over the top"...

Recent deep gouges in the top of the right barrel are most unfortunate.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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LRF
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Reged: 28/03/11
Posts: 501
Loc: minnesota ,usa
Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: Marrakai]
      #394610 - 29/11/25 09:17 PM

Casper50, No to answer the question, pretty much the same as others have said.
If you are watching the auction I would be curious to know what it does sell for if you find out.
Frankly it looks like a parts gun although, of course, I don't know that the parts themselves have any value.
Unless you had a new set of barrels built for it which would be a costly endeavor, as you well know.

Edited by LRF (29/11/25 09:21 PM)

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casper50
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: LRF]
      #394619 - 30/11/25 04:31 AM

I doubt that the barrels came off of another gun. I've been looking hard at the dollshead area trying to come up with a way that orphan barrels could have been fitted. The fitting of the dollshead would not be possible as the barrel's dollshead would have been way below the height of the action's slot. The serial numbers match but that could be done after the fact.

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DarylS
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: casper50]
      #394621 - 30/11/25 07:27 AM

I see what you mean by the straight sided rib extension, not really a doll's head.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: DarylS]
      #394627 - 30/11/25 01:24 PM

Correct I just didn't go back and take a look. I should have with my short term memory. Lol

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CJF
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: casper50]
      #394665 - 01/12/25 10:21 AM

I also don't appreciate that look. FWIW, I know this question has been asked before, so either this rifle is circling around, or there's at least one other instance of this mating of smaller barrels to a larger breach face. I don't know if that question was asked here, or on another site that specializes in doubles.

Chris

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: CJF]
      #394670 - 01/12/25 04:42 PM

When I spoke to Rolf Babick, who made Tony's and now Mick's "Fat Lady". A .577 2 1/2" LNE on a Greener Empire shotgun. Because of the size of the action, the choice of cartridge chambering is limited. Unless one wants some huge thick barrels. So the .577 cartridge was chosen. For a double rifle and a cape gun version.

If choosing a smaller cartridge, and lesser barrels than the action was designed for, such a result as the pictured DR might result. The raised or extended rib and dolls head is obviously required to lock up the closed action.

I think it's pretty obvious that these are a later set of barrels. Either an additional pair of rifle barrels maybe to 12-bore shotgun barrels. Or maybe a replacement set of barrels, maybe to replace a original set of barrels.

I said it looked ugly but if it's usable and safe, at reasonable price, it's not so bad that one couldn't own and use it.

What cartridge chambering is it?

I note it's got Damascus barrels. So is it BPE?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Marrakai
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: NitroX]
      #394681 - 01/12/25 10:26 PM

I think there needs to be a greater acceptance here of the rules for British gunmaking.

The rules are: "There are no rules"!

The fact that something might look strange or even "ugly" 150 years after being made should not necessarily make it the subject of harsh criticism in my view.

Look, I'm happy to stand corrected, but it certainly appears that for whatever reason, Scott sometimes made them like that.

Went digging in my backup drives and found a pic of that Climax double I mentioned considering in an earlier post,
admittedly not as stepped at the breech as the subject of this thread but stepped none-the-less.
Similar era, browned barrels on Scott's typical hammerless sidelock of the day with coin finish.

It was definitely made that way.


Apologies for the poor-quality image, the seller's photography not mine!

I have seen a couple more built like this advertised many years ago (one of them must have been the crystal indicator) but would struggle to find pics now
(if in fact I ripped them at the time).

If a vintage double has been cobbled-up badly for sale to a sucker I would gladly cast the first stone,
but Scott-built sidelocks were at the peak of British gun-making at the time and, if original, should be appreciated and enjoyed for what they are.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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casper50
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: Marrakai]
      #394687 - 02/12/25 03:47 AM

It's listed as an unknown .44 cartridge but was listed on Guns International where it sold as a 450 3 1/4" BPE. My Gibbs Farquharson rifle is marked 44 but is a 450 3 1/4" BPE as well.

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4630
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: Marrakai]
      #394689 - 02/12/25 06:52 AM

Quote:

I think there needs to be a greater acceptance here of the rules for British gunmaking.

The rules are: "There are no rules"!

The fact that something might look strange or even "ugly" 150 years after being made should not necessarily make it the subject of harsh criticism in my view.

Look, I'm happy to stand corrected, but it certainly appears that for whatever reason, Scott sometimes made them like that.

Went digging in my backup drives and found a pic of that Climax double I mentioned considering in an earlier post,
admittedly not as stepped at the breech as the subject of this thread but stepped none-the-less.
Similar era, browned barrels on Scott's typical hammerless sidelock of the day with coin finish.

It was definitely made that way.


Apologies for the poor-quality image, the seller's photography not mine!

I have seen a couple more built like this advertised many years ago (one of them must have been the crystal indicator) but would struggle to find pics now
(if in fact I ripped them at the time).

If a vintage double has been cobbled-up badly for sale to a sucker I would gladly cast the first stone,
but Scott-built sidelocks were at the peak of British gun-making at the time and if original should be appreciated and enjoyed for what they are.



Well bugger me!
After Marrakai's post here, then I guess it may alleviate the 'cobbled' doubt, perhaps the maker made too many actions of a certain larger size, only to get far more orders for a smaller calibre normally requiring a smaller action - rifle needed in a hurry perhaps, an easy option I suppose?

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #394691 - 02/12/25 07:21 AM

A dog is a dog is a dog. Don't make excuses for sloppy and poor work. If you can't match barrels to the action size then don't make it. Could you really own a gun and look at that construction every time you took it from the safe or even knowing it was in your safe, yuk.

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Marrakai
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: eagle27]
      #394693 - 02/12/25 07:41 AM

You're kidding, right? W. & C. Scott did NOT do sloppy or poor work on any guns, let alone fully engraved sidelocks.

Which is my point!

For whatever reason the oversized standing breech appears to have been deliberate back in the day.

About all I can say on the matter without getting into an argument...

...except that if you find any of these "dogs" on your side of the ditch Lindsay, please send them over to those of us who appreciate fine gun-making,
regardless of variations in house style!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3828
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: Marrakai]
      #394695 - 02/12/25 08:12 AM

Quote:

About all I can say on the matter


OK, I lied.

The more I looked at that Scott Climax photo, the more I realized it is likely a 12-bore game gun, one of the other guns I was considering many years ago.
So I went searching for an image of the actual Crystal Indicator sidelock BP double that I missed buying at the time.

Found it!
Here it is:



Perhaps that will help put the matter to bed!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1236
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: Marrakai]
      #394699 - 02/12/25 08:31 AM

Quote:

You're kidding, right? W. & C. Scott did NOT do sloppy or poor work on any guns, let alone fully engraved sidelocks.

Which is my point!

For whatever reason the oversized standing breech appears to have been deliberate back in the day.

About all I can say on the matter without getting into an argument...

...except that if you find any of these "dogs" on your side of the ditch Lindsay, please send them over to those of us who appreciate fine gun-making,
regardless of variations in house style!



Not questioning the actual workmanship, just sloppy and poor to mismatch barrels to actions. Hell if there was any advantage mechanically to have 'overhanging' breech faces then every gun builder would have done it. Not one poster here has said in looks a nice gun, in fact most have said it looks a cobbled gun or words to that effect. I don't care who made it, it is sloppy work to put a gun together like that.

Edited by eagle27 (02/12/25 08:31 AM)

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Marrakai
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: eagle27]
      #394704 - 02/12/25 12:02 PM

I give up.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Does the barrel to fence look right to you? [Re: Marrakai]
      #394710 - 02/12/25 06:49 PM

Sorry Tony but ..,,

I'm guessing it was cheaper to make a 12-boresized standard sized action. And stick whatever sized barrels to the standard action.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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