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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1281
Loc: Georgia, USA
My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR
      #393856 - 15/10/25 05:55 AM

I recently acquired a new (to me) double rifle in 9x58.5r Sauer. I am trying to post pictures of my rifle. Hopefully this works, (finders crossed - Process seems tedious)

From what I see, the proof marks are pre-1912 (maybe someone can help me with that)

https://i.postimg.cc/HxGKk8SP/IMG-0077.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/nz85h9d3/IMG-0078.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/XJMhYB22/IMG-0079.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/3RM6x0L9/IMG-0080.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Y91PG2Zc/IMG-0081.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MTyLMZN8/IMG-0082.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/yxsbF4Cz/IMG-0083.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/gjmTvFbW/IMG-0084.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/T1f4rMv5/IMG-0086.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/SRkvWFbz/IMG-0087.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Bb4Vx9fx/IMG-0088.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Gtd5kwnJ/IMG-0089.jpg

--------------------
RB

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93x64mm
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: 85lc]
      #393857 - 15/10/25 06:48 AM

Very nice piece of kit indeed 85lc!
Capt Curl with love that belly as well!
Beautiful engraving

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Claydog
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: 85lc]
      #393860 - 15/10/25 08:46 AM











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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1281
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: Claydog]
      #393863 - 15/10/25 12:03 PM

Claydog, Thanks for posting the pictures.

I am not sure if rifle is German or Austrian. The proof marks appear (to me) to be Austrian between 1891 and 1912 for a black powder rifle.

I recently shot this rifle using 180 gr HC GC bullet swaged to 0.356" pushed by 22 gr of IMR 4198. The velocity was 1600 fps.

I would like to get up to 1800 fps and use for deer hunting in the SE, USA.

Any thoughts on loads?

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: 85lc]
      #393864 - 15/10/25 03:42 PM

If your current load is accurate in this rifle (regulated), the speed is just fine for deer. You are currently duplicating the high speed load from a normal length.38/55(or thereabouts).
Otherwise, some "work" is in order. Nice rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Claydog
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: DarylS]
      #393867 - 15/10/25 05:27 PM

That is a nice useable double. Would be a great deer rifle. Nicely engraved is a definite bonus. Greener action?

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bwanabobftw
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Reged: 29/12/04
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: Claydog]
      #393871 - 16/10/25 12:02 AM

Now that’s a classy deer rifle !!!!!!!!!!!!
Congratulations

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1281
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #393872 - 16/10/25 01:49 AM

I agree that accuracy trumps velocity and that 1600fps with a 180 gr slug is adequate for southern white tail deer. As Daryl points out, the ballistics of that load equals the 38/55 (HP) ballistics.

I have only shot this load at a short range (a nearby indoor range).

There is a slight spread between the right and left barrel, with the right being about 1" - 1.5" right of the left barrel. That indicates to me that more velocity or lighter bullet may be needed. I think the intended bullet weight is around 200 grs so higher velocity may be the ticket. Of course, shooting at an outdoor range at 50 and 100 yds is needed.

In looking for some guidance, I checked Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" (4th ed). Now Wright didn't include the 9x58.5r Sauer but the 360 EX (BPE) is very close. In fact, I use my 360EX dies to reload the cases. The Sause case is 58.5mm and the 360 EX case is 57mm long (very close). Both can be made from 9.3x72R cases.

Wright shows a load for the 360EX of 25 gr of R7 and a 190 gr jacketed bullet for 1700 fps. I will try the 25 gr of R7 and my 180 gr HC GC bullet at the outdoor range and see how that does at 50 & 100 yds. I will also try my existing load using IMR 4198.

--------------------
RB

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: 85lc]
      #393916 - 19/10/25 11:05 PM

Nice rifle!

The "U crown" and "G crown" and 118/35 are German proof marks. The other marks probably were applied later. The 118/35 is the original plug gauge measurement of the bore stated in bore gauge - 118.35 gauge.

I don't have my proof reference books in front of me now, so I am not able to be more specific.

I see the barrels are chopper lumps. That is somewhat uncommon for a German rifle, but not rare.

Shoot the rifle at longer range to find out what it is really doing.

Curly

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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kuduae
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: CptCurl]
      #393920 - 20/10/25 01:27 AM

Quote:

The "U crown" and "G crown" and 118/35 are German proof marks. The 118/35 is the original plug gauge measurement of the bore stated in bore gauge - 118.35 gauge.
I don't have my proof reference books in front of me now, so I am not able to be more specific.


Pre-1905 Suhl proofs as there is no distinction between bp and Nitro. The queer gauge numbers were taken over from the British proof tables. 118.35 stood for a bore/ land diameter from .340” to .350”.

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DarylS
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: kuduae]
      #393921 - 20/10/25 02:03 AM

Those ballistics were closer to the original smokeless load for the .32/40, 1,600fps with a 170gr., I believe.
The HV .38/55 load, seems to me, was a 255gr. FN at 1,800fps., but from a 28" bl.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: DarylS]
      #393931 - 20/10/25 06:27 AM

With 180 gr GC bullet and 25 gr of IMR 4198, I am getting ~1850 fps. The 50 yd group was about 2 1/2". I would like to try more with the powder. Unfortunately, I am about out of 4198.

I loaded some case with R7 which is supposed to be a little faster burning than 4198 but the 25 gr loads were slower and the groups were larger.

I will try several loads with 3031.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: 85lc]
      #393940 - 20/10/25 09:54 AM

IMR & H 4198 and R7, I think, change places on the scale, depending on the ctg. or perhaps it might also change with pressure level generated.
The same "trading places" also happens with the 4895's. With some other powder makers using the same or similar numbers, it can be confusing. This becomes especially confusing when the prefix of the powder maker is not given in the data.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: DarylS]
      #393941 - 20/10/25 09:58 AM

What diameter bullets are you using?
I do believe there are a couple different mfgr's making 200gr. RN moulds in .358".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: DarylS]
      #393953 - 21/10/25 07:28 AM

Good afternoon, Daryl,

For some unknown reason, the R7 that I have produces lower velocities than the 4198, even though the burn charts shows R7 being a slightly faster powder. I also experienced that in a 369EX and a 9x72r.

Slugs show my rifle groves at 0.355" so I am swaging (Lee swage) cast bullets to 0.356". I have swaged and shot bullets in weights of 200gr, 180 gr and 147gr.

With the left barrel shooting left and right shooting right, I need either the bullet to exit quicker or have less momentum. That is why I was shooting the 147 gr bullet and upped the charge from 22 gr to 25 gr.

I really like IMR 4198 for my NfB loads though in the past, I used 3031 in a 8x30/40 kipplauf.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: 85lc]
      #393954 - 21/10/25 08:38 AM

That's interesting. My .458 2" gave identical vel. using identical loads of H4198 and Re#7 with 400gr. Barnes spitzers.

Do you feel increasing the load of 4198 with the 180gr. will over-stress the rifle?

I think you noted 1 1/2" between centers of the loads you've tried. Is this at 25 yards or 50yards.
How far apart are the muzzle centers?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CJF
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: DarylS]
      #393955 - 21/10/25 11:50 AM

Congrats on the new rifle Roy. Looks great.

Are there set screws on both triggers?

Re the bore's gauge marking, 118/35, that's the same on my tight bored 9.3x72R double retailed by Weisgerber. That one shoots 200gr JSP bullets of .358" intended for the 35 Remington. Accuracy is OK and improving as I work to get decades of copper and nickel jacketing out of the bores and sort out the right load.

Good luck with your load development work.

Regards,
Chris

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85lc
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: CJF]
      #393975 - 22/10/25 02:44 AM

Chris,

Thank you. Yes, both triggers are set triggers. I have a couple other continental rifles that hve two set triggers.

From the little that I know, many early German rifles have a gauge marking of 118/35 and shoot bullets between 0.355" and 0.359". I have a kipplauf so marked that shoots 0.359" bullets.

I would like to try some JSP bullets but would need them in 0.355" diameter. I would have to swage the 200 gr JSP 0.358" bullets to 0.355" to shoot in my rifle. I am not sure my Lee swage is up to swaging JSP bullets.

Daryl, Good question about over stressing the rifle. I am not sure if the rifle was proofed for black or smokeless so am proceeding as if proofed for black. Over stressing the rifle was my initial concern but after reading Wright's book about that NfB load (200 gr JSP with 25gr R7) in the almost identical 360 EX, I decided that the load was safe. I am also using 180 gr cast bullets, both of which should reduce pressure.

If I find a heavy jacketed, 147 gr 0.355" pistol bullet, I will try that.
.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: 85lc]
      #393976 - 22/10/25 04:06 AM

We have found that jacketed bullets can be sized (drawn) down about .003" safely, in Lee dies.

Some years back, a friend bought 3 Lee die sets to size .338" bullets down to .323" for his 8x68S, as well as .323" bullets down to .314" for his P-14 Enfield in .303.
9.3x57 (Rod) of this site was also into sizing down .375" bullets to .366" at that time, as I was too.
A "good" lubricant is needed. I found Imperial sizing wax was good, as-was STOS, a Ponsness Warren lubricant for their shotshell loading presses.
Most ctg. chambers and cases will allow bullets from .001" to .002 oversize, without increasing breech pressures, especially with cast bullets.
If the larger bullet will fit/slide into a just-fired case, they can be loaded without being sized smaller.
For example, my old 9.3x57 would accept jacketed bullets up to .367"(sized down .375's) which all shot into sub 1" at 100 meters.

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DarylS
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: DarylS]
      #393977 - 22/10/25 04:21 AM

As to triggers, there are single triggers that fire a rifle, and single set triggers(usually push forward to "set") that can fire, set or unset.I guess those could be called single set, double-throw triggers.

There are also double triggers where the rear trigger sets the front trigger to fire the gun, but just pulling the front trigger will not fire the rifle. That is a double set, single throw trigger.

Then there are the double set, double throw triggers, were pulling the front trigger without setting the rear trigger will fire the gun, or it can be fired by setting the rear trigger. Those are the triggers usually found on Mausers and many double triggered, US muzzleloading and ctg. rifles of the BP era.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: DarylS]
      #393991 - 23/10/25 02:11 AM

Daryl,

Good comments on set triggers. I guess my continental double rifles have double, single-set triggers.

For the second of Buffalo Model Newton, the front trigger face is reversed and that is to set the rear trigger. That is the only set up that I know of that uses the front trigger as the setting trigger. For shooting, I like that arrangement better. Without shifting your hand, you can set the trigger just before a shot by moving your trigger finger forward.

Good info on swaging jacketed bullets using a Lee swage.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: My new 9x58.5r Sauer DR [Re: 85lc]
      #394013 - 24/10/25 01:05 AM

Lee recommended .003" maximum steps when using their dies for sizing down bullets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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