Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns

Pages: 1
Claydog
.400 member


Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 1232
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
Using Steel Shot in Our Guns
      #393439 - 16/09/25 08:35 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyMSur0BdDQ There seems to be a few misconceptions about steel shot use in your old English shotgun. This is one of the best clips on it I have seen. Simon Reinhold from Holts Auctions. Also gives a bit of a rundown on barrel wall thickness. Worth a watch.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27917
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: Claydog]
      #393448 - 17/09/25 01:39 AM

That was interesting. Appears standard steel is OK in Nitro-proofed guns with 1/2 or more open chokes.
My waterfowling guns were, of course, full chokes for pass shooting ducks and geese.
My "Field" Hammer gun will never see anything but lead shot in it's Damascus tubes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1233
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #393451 - 17/09/25 07:57 AM

There is quite a bit of confusing information around about use of steel shot. The video mentions that high performance steel shot loadings should only be used in guns with fleur-de-lis proofing. While this may be a good general guide it is not absolute. When researching whether I could use steel shot loadings in my 1984 Miroku O/U Sporter gun which has Invector chokes but no steel proofing marks, I came across the following information on the Miroku/Browning site;

"All hunting or sporting shotguns (over-and-under or semi-auto guns) by Browning, Winchester and Miroku fitted with the original chokes (Invector, Steel Invector Plus, Stainless steel Invector Plus, Teague, Briley, Midas, Diamond, Signature chokes) can fire "high performance" steel shot cartridges.
Tested at the Liège test bench (high performance 1370 bars) in accordance with European law on the use of steel shot."

Converting 1370 bar gives us a pressure of 19870psi which is certainly a step up in pressures for a shotgun. There is a misconception that steel shot will score the bore of shotguns not made for steel however the bore cannot be scored if the steel shot is not touching it. Wads for steel shot are thicker and longer so the shot is fully contained in the thick plastic cup, a warning made in reloading information for steel shot is to absolutely ensure the shot is fully contained in the petals of the wad, unlike heavy loads of lead where often even in factory loads, some lead shot sit above the petals and contact the bore on the passage through.

The issue with steel shot is the choking of shotguns where hard steel shot does not compress to the same extent as lead shot hence more open chokes or stronger thicker walled, stainless steel, etc., screw in chokes are needed to prevent muzzle bulging and peening of choke threads.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3790
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: eagle27]
      #393454 - 17/09/25 11:23 AM

Good video clip, nice to see a rational response but as eagle27 points out, it is not absolute.

I am reluctantly tossing up the Google AI summary of this topic for background before further discussion.
Yes, I know its AI generated, but I have always considered Google responses to be "AI" anyway, but now they actually have to say so!

Quote:

AI Overview
Modern shotgun proof pressures are standardized by bodies like SAAMI (USA) and CIP (Europe) to ensure safety. For a 12-gauge shotgun, the maximum service pressure (MAP) is generally 11,500 psi (793 bar) under SAAMI, while CIP standards differ slightly. Proof loads, which are significantly higher, are used to test the strength of the barrel and ensure it can withstand these pressures and more, with tests often involving pressures around 19,800 psi (1365 bar) for a 12-gauge.

Proof Pressure vs. Service Pressure
Proof Pressure: This is the high-pressure load used to test the barrel's strength and integrity to ensure it's free of flaws and capable of withstanding the forces of normal operation.
Service Pressure (Maximum Average Pressure - MAP): This is the maximum pressure that modern ammunition is allowed to develop during normal firing for safe use in a shotgun.

Examples for 12-Gauge Shotguns
SAAMI (USA): The maximum average pressure (MAP) for 2¾-inch and 3-inch 12-gauge loads is 11,500 psi. The proof load used to test the barrels is much higher, around 19,800 psi.
CIP (Europe): Standards for 12-gauge shotguns are similar, often around 740 bar (10,730 psi) for standard loads, and 1320 bar (19,144 psi) for high-performance or magnum loads.

Proofing and Shotgun Strength
Barrel Strength: Shotgun barrels are built significantly stronger than the service pressure limits, creating a large safety margin.
Safety Factor: Proof loads are about 60% higher than the maximum average pressure (MAP) for standard loads.
Modern vs. Vintage: Proof marks on a firearm indicate that it has passed these tests, and for modern guns, this typically means they are safe for use with ammunition at or below the established service pressure limits.

AI responses may include mistakes.




So...
there are some very high pressures quoted there, that would likely pipe-bomb a vintage game gun, with or without chokes.
You will see the proof marks on Clayton's new acquisition showing 3 tons per square inch. By direct calculation this is 2240 x 3 = 6720 psi.
It is likely the service pressure of a modern gun would equal or exceed the proof pressure of that early Boswell (and most of my SxS game guns as well!).

A lot of internet sites make a big deal about the "new" proof laws of 1954, and there is a general acceptance that British shotguns nitro-proved between 1896 and 1954 may only be safe with a 3 ton service load, perhaps 3 1/4 tons.

This brings us to the critical part of Simon Reinhold's interview where inspection of the gun, particularly barrel wall thickness (and general size of the locking components including breech dimensions IMHO), will usually tell you more than proof marks in an older gun.

Opening the chokes on a 100-year-old pigeon gun or fowler in good condition will probably give you safe use of normal commercial steel shot cartridges till the end of your life, whereas using them in a vintage game gun will probably give you the results you deserve!

Sad thing is, the gun wouldn't deserve it!

Something to clarify: are the "high performance" steel shotshells mentioned in the video all 3-inch, or can they be had in a 2 3/4 shell?
If so, an accident waiting to happen?
Must look that up.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Claydog
.400 member


Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 1232
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: Marrakai]
      #393466 - 18/09/25 07:29 AM

https://simonreinhold.co.uk/partridge-shooting/2020/12/13/steel-shot-the-knowledge
There is a bit more about it here from Simon Reinhold and goes into different shot sizes. I had a bit of a look and most of the High Performance seemed to be 3 inch. Seemed a bit confusing to me though with all the different naming. High veocity, High Performance, Ultra High Performance,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3790
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: Claydog]
      #393494 - 20/09/25 10:18 PM

To illustrate my earlier point about inspecting a gun for general strength in relation to modern nitro proof,
especially relating to steel shotshells, I offer the following comparison.
Both these shotguns are well over 100 years old, both are 2 3/4 chambered
and both were nitro-proved in the decade prior to the start of the Kaiser's War,
the Jeffery game gun for 1 1/8 oz and the Greener E10 for 1 1/4 oz loads.



Cheese and chalk! Action bar length and overall gun weight further reflect the difference.
Both have cylinder-bored chokes and while I have every confidence shooting modern steel waterfowl cartridges in the Greener Empire,
I strongly suspect the same loads would soon destroy the Jeffery game-gun.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4551
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: Marrakai]
      #393498 - 21/09/25 09:40 AM

I think I've got this right......so as I understand the issue, for anything that would be considered 'vintage', very early Nitro proofed guns, unless there are very specific 2 1/2" shells with steel shot & your bores are 1/2 choke or less, then these shells will only be loaded to conventional levels that an equivalent lead load would have (NOT high performance loads) - providing you DON'T exceed the Maximum payload if displayed on the flats like Marrakai's Jeffery 1 1/8 oz or 32g!
Otherwise use please use equivalent Bismuth shot if you're after waterfowl or game (If decreed you must in the area you are shooting in)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1233
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: Marrakai]
      #393499 - 21/09/25 09:45 AM

Although you have listed the Jeffery first, I'm assuming it's the Greener top of the picture. Certainly quite a difference visually and all things being equal metallurgy wise, the Greener bite lumps definitely have a much greater shear area. Of course the under bolt also plays a part in the overall lock up strength too and could be the weak point.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27917
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: eagle27]
      #393503 - 22/09/25 01:18 AM

That's the was I read it 93x64mm.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3790
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #393531 - 29/09/25 02:54 PM

The elephant in the room is that shotguns actually designed to handle steel shot cartridges are all very recently manufactured using modern steel alloys, so the cartridges can be loaded fairly hot on the safe assumption there will never be a structural failure.

When we open the chokes on a vintage gun to remove the potential for ring-bulging of the forcing-cones at the muzzles, we do nothing to strengthen the gun's breech, lumps or chambers for modern proof pressures.

To err on the safe side, modern steel-pellet factory-loads should only be used in heavy duck or pigeon guns that pass scrutiny for strength, like the Greener Empire in my earlier post.

Simon Reinhold should have made that point more emphatically in his video IMHO.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27917
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: Marrakai]
      #393543 - 30/09/25 01:22 AM

The two double guns I sold when steel shot "came in" for ducks and geese" were reamed full choke guns & did not have choke tubes. I do have a modern Mossberg 835 with steel choke tubes and 3 1/2" chambers. It also has an extremely large diameter chamber area, larger than any other pump I've ever seen.
Those 3 1/2" shells look imposing. I have a box in #2 steel, but have never fired the shotgun tube on the gun, only the rifled one. That model Mossberg comes with both.
The 24" rifled tube loves the 2 3/4" Gualandi DGS slugs, 496gr. @ 1,610fps.
It shoots identically with 3" WW 1oz.Fosters at 1,750fps.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Claydog
.400 member


Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 1232
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #393547 - 30/09/25 08:04 AM

Yeah I am just not going to use steel in any of my old doubles. Thinking of getting a new side x side that I know has been built for it. Just to be sure.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27917
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: Claydog]
      #393550 - 30/09/25 08:46 AM

Good choice if not having faith in the old fellows.
A friend of mine used 2 3/4" steel.oly in the mod tube of his old double. Turned it into a cylinder choked, but didn't lposen the ribs.
Funny looking tube, all expanded out the side, top and bottom, quite evenly.
Belgium gun with brazed tubes, come go think of it now, with damascus tubes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3790
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #393551 - 30/09/25 04:00 PM

If only it were easier to modify factory-loaded shotshells to remove some of the powder and perhaps some of the pellets to reduce the pressure.
That would be worth the effort for vintage guns with open chokes in my opinion.
Whenever I have tried this in the past, the re-crimped cartridges look like sh!t...
...and the crimp concaves to the point where pimple-bulges in the second barrel are a risk.

I am going to revisit this though, now that I have the afore-mentioned Jeffery game gun with 2 3/4 chambers and cylinder-bored chokes.
But I'll probably restrict the experiment to #3 or #4 steel pellets for ducks.

Watch this space!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4551
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Using Steel Shot in Our Guns [Re: Marrakai]
      #393556 - 30/09/25 09:18 PM

Quote:

If only it were easier to modify factory-loaded shotshells to remove some of the powder and perhaps some of the pellets to reduce the pressure.
That would be worth the effort for vintage guns with open chokes in my opinion.
Whenever I have tried this in the past, the re-crimped cartridges look like sh!t...
...and the crimp concaves to the point where pimple-bulges in the second barrel are a risk.

I am going to revisit this though, now that I have the afore-mentioned Jeffery game gun with 2 3/4 chambers and cylinder-bored chokes.
But I'll probably restrict the experiment to #3 or #4 steel pellets for ducks.

Watch this space!




I will be waiting for your range report mate, getting ANY shot here now in Oz is virtually finding hen's teeth!
If anyone knows a supplier, can you let us know please!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 14 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  NitroX 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 1430

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved