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CJF
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Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action
      #391734 - 26/05/25 08:00 AM

At the most recent Rock Island Auction I was the high bidder on a 450 3.25" double rifle by Edward Lang. I was interested in the rifle for a number of reasons -- first, I really like the Webley Bain screw grip action and have ones in 360BPE (Watson), 500BPE (Army & Navy CSL) as well as a 20ga shotgun converted from a rifle. I like the action.

Secondly, this rifle had been scoped in the past. The mounts are typical German claw mounts and the scope is a 4X. I wanted a scope on a DR for deer hunting here in the USA (either northern MN or western MD).

Lastly, while I have 8 DRs, none had the original mould and I thought that was very cool.

Anyway, I had it to the range today for the first time. The bore at the muzzles is noticeably tighter than my Dickson 450, and I wanted to try what I've been reading about NfB loads in Graeme Wright's 4th edition, so I loaded up 4 rounds using .452 jacketed HPs by Hornady (300gr XTPs) and 44gr of IMR4198. Loading couldn't have been simpler...already had resized and primed cases and just measured and poured in the powder, topped with ~3gr of kapok fiber to fill the airspace, and hand pressed in the bullet.

I couldn't have been happier with the results. Accuracy at 50yrds was 1.5" and the velocity was fairly consistent. I also tried some 300gr LFP bullets with the same charge and filler and those didn't work as well. Finally I had some left over patched 300gr LFP bullets loaded with 110gr 2Fg and a grease cookie...those did better than the NfB 300gr lead projectiles, but no where near as well as the jacketed bullets.

I think I may be spending more time in the NfB territory as they were so stupid easy to load. And while I don't mind cleaning up after black, it would have been nice to just put the rifle in the vault and be done.

Here's the auction. Pics will follow when time allows. https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail...ifle-with-scope

Chris

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Claydog
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391736 - 26/05/25 08:15 AM

Amazing condition and beautiful rifle.Nice purchase. Has the stock been refinished or original?

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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: Claydog]
      #391737 - 26/05/25 11:07 AM

Stock was definitely refinished. As in I don't believe it was restocked. Given how nice the metal is, the wood's lack of patina is disappointing. But hey, it really shoots well!

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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391738 - 26/05/25 11:20 AM

This view from the action top shows what I think of as the standard Webley Bain dolls head. And the "Patent" written around the top lever suggests early, while the patent was still in use (the two later ones I own don't have this text) I don't have a pic of yet, but the water table has some interesting stamps, plus an Anson & Deeley patent use number.



Where it gets interesting is the top tang...note there's no safety. But there is a safety, it's on the bottom tang. i don't know that I've seen this before.



Here's the bottom tang. Push that little button forward (towards muzzles) and it's on safe. Back is fire.



Edited by CJF (26/05/25 12:03 PM)

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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391739 - 26/05/25 11:21 AM



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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391740 - 26/05/25 12:02 PM



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CM76
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391741 - 26/05/25 12:32 PM

Very nice! Congratulations!

Chris

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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CM76]
      #391742 - 26/05/25 12:34 PM

Thank you Chris. I'm very happy with how the rifle looks and I am feeling quite lucky to have it shoot so well on its first outing.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391743 - 26/05/25 04:15 PM

Very nice and well done

I hope it brings you very many enjoyable hunts.

Huntig deer with your scoped DR .450 BPE, what a wonderful choice.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Marrakai
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: NitroX]
      #391744 - 26/05/25 05:39 PM

Yep, that's a keeper.
Lovely engraving, slim lines, screw-grip, all good!
Scope looks big...

Congratulations mate!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: Marrakai]
      #391747 - 26/05/25 11:31 PM

Thanks all!

Marrakai, I agree, the KAPS scope is rather large, especially for a 4X. Thankfully the optics are clear and bright, and whoever had this last sure had it zeroed. Ultimately I'd like to replace it with something smaller like a Leupold 1x4 or a Trijicon TR24 1x4, but that will take custom claw mounts. The current scope has a rail underneath and those seem to be uncommon and quite expensive here in the US. But at least it seems to be a quality product.

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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391748 - 26/05/25 11:47 PM

Seeking advice on reloading.

Up till now I've only loaded black powder in my 450 and 500 BPE rifles, and for those, I've been full length resizing and then belling the mouths before seating paper patched and cast lead bullets.

But for this rifle's first range trip, since I wanted to try smokeless 4198, and I had some already resized and primed cases that snugly accepted a .452 bullet, and this rifles muzzles were tighter than my other 450s, I tried hand seating 452 bullets. These just took a few taps with a soft faced hammer to seat to the cannelure. So no crimp of any kind. And accuracy was good.

My 450 3.25" dies are from CH4D. The full length sizer takes the case mouths down to where a .452" bullet is tight entering. Now my cases fired in this rifle readily accept a .458" bullet -- even looser than the resized cases with .452" I take this to mean the bores are tapered, which would be appropriate for an 1887 rifle. Sound right? (Yes, casts would confirm)

So now the question...and maybe it is two questions...

First, given that the chambers are 0.458/459, is there any reason to not try .458" jacketed bullets? I can do a chamber cast when I get home, but I'm taking this with me on a long road trip west starting Tuesday, and I need to load ammo for that trip and pack, so a bit time crunched.

Second, assuming the kapok filler supports the bullet adequately in previously fired cases while seating, I am thinking I am done with the full length resizing step (as long as I can de-prime these somehow without using the resizing die.) I'd just use the resizer to taper crimp if neck tension is too loose, which it appears to be with 458 bullets and fired cases from this rifle.

I'm thinking to try 300gr 458 bullets with same 4198 charge and filler, given that 452s JHPs were relatively slow and not crossing, and rifle handled .458 LRN/patched well.

Below are the chronograph results from yesterday's shooting:
1) .452 jacketed HPs from Hornady. 300gr, over 44gr IMR4198 and about 3gr kapok fiber. Hand seated/no crimp. Avg velocity 4 shots: 1664fps. Std dev 14.4fps. Great accuracy at 50yds (on bullseye, small group) Not crossing.

2) .452 lead flat points. 300gr. Same powder and filler. Hand seated, no crimp. Avg velocity 5 shots: 1800fps, std dev 37fps, poor accuracy (4-5" group at 50yds). Not crossing, ~2" high.

3) .452, paper patched LRN to .458. 300gr. 110gr 2Fg. Crimped. 1701fps avg velocity. Std dev 6.6fps. Better than #2, but still 3-4" at 50yds. Not crossing.

Edited by CJF (27/05/25 03:15 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391749 - 27/05/25 12:40 AM

Quote:

Thanks all!

Marrakai, I agree, the KAPS scope is rather large, especially for a 4X. Thankfully the optics are clear and bright, and whoever had this last sure had it zeroed. Ultimately I'd like to replace it with something smaller like a Leupold 1x4 or a Trijicon TR24 1x4, but that will take custom claw mounts. The current scope has a rail underneath and those seem to be uncommon and quite expensive here in the US. But at least it seems to be a quality product.



If you ever try that regulating round without the scope, please report the results.

Be aware mounting a different scope might change the regulation results. Again please report any results, pro or con.

Of course you can order a rail scope from European scope makers. Alas their variables are getting younger be behemoths. And slim light fixed powers are often not even made today. The second hand market might be a source.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: NitroX]
      #391752 - 27/05/25 01:39 AM

Thanks John. I'll update once I try it without the scope. Thankfully, like its contemporaries, the stock really helps line up the iron sights.

Re rail scopes, it seems you can find them in the US, but I haven't seen one for less than $1K so far. But then they were only on my radar since last week! Somewhere in my boxes of odds and ends is a German rail scope that my wife's uncle gave me when he was divesting some of his gun stuff. He's gone now (Parkinson's), and I've helped the aunt sell off his guns. I'll treasure the 1873 Winchester in 32-20 and a 44-40 Colt SAA that his dad bought from the guy who bought it new from Colt in 1908.

Regards,
Chris

Edited by CJF (27/05/25 03:06 AM)

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93x64mm
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391754 - 27/05/25 07:00 AM

CJF, you have a most exquisite rifle there mate, an heirloom for sure!
The engraving alone just quietly states quality, nothing less.
Glad you had success straight up with the 300gn jacketed NFB load, I guess the next thing to do is do a cerrosafe chamber & slug the barrel to prove your theory, I'm in agreeance with you, I believe it will be a tapering bore.

If you can chamber a .458 projectile okay then you should have sufficient chambers to release the bullet, I'd only use lead projectiles rather than jacketed to swage down the bore - others may prove me wrong here.
I'm rather conservative when coming to doubles!
Looking forward to your next range report, enjoy your old girl & take her for another spin!

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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: 93x64mm]
      #391755 - 27/05/25 09:15 AM

Quote:

CJF, you have a most exquisite rifle there mate, an heirloom for sure!
The engraving alone just quietly states quality, nothing less.
Glad you had success straight up with the 300gn jacketed NFB load, I guess the next thing to do is do a cerrosafe chamber & slug the barrel to prove your theory, I'm in agreeance with you, I believe it will be a tapering bore.

If you can chamber a .458 projectile okay then you should have sufficient chambers to release the bullet, I'd only use lead projectiles rather than jacketed to swage down the bore - others may prove me wrong here.
I'm rather conservative when coming to doubles!
Looking forward to your next range report, enjoy your old girl & take her for another spin!



I'll post after the next shoot, scheduled for 6/8 out in Colorado. For that I loaded up a bunch of the 300 jacketed NFB loads that worked so well, increasing the charge from 44 to 45 grains, plus 10 rounds of a LFN bullet in .458 that I've used in my other 450s with success. That will use slightly more powder. Fingers crossed.

I won't try out jacketed 458s till I have a chance to slug the bore and cast the chambers. I know that a fired case has expands more than enough to seat a 458 bullet.

Thanks for the kind words on the rifle. I really like it too.

Chris

Edited by CJF (28/05/25 10:45 AM)

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Huvius
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: CJF]
      #391774 - 29/05/25 01:46 AM

I suppose a tapered bore could be just that - a tapered bore, but, are the grooves full depth and not tapered with the bore?
Meaning, do the grooves stay at .458" while the bore tapers from .450" to something like .446 or so?

If that's how they were done, I see no reason why a conventional cup and core .458" jacketed bullet wouldn't work.
The Hornady 350gr RN are supposed to be a good choice for BPE 450s.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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85lc
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: Huvius]
      #391775 - 29/05/25 02:17 AM

Chris,

I am a little late but congratulations on the wonderful buy. I looked at your Lang and started to bid but had bids in on the two Farquharsons which my wallet thanked my for bidding too low (close but low). I am glad you got it and it is a shooter.

My experience with cast and jacketed bullets is that the cast bullet will exit with a higher velocity. Of course, what really matters is accuracy.

BTW, my load for my Lancaster DR 450EX is 48 gr 4198, foam wad, wax wad & 325 gr PP swaged bullet. My Lancaster does shoot well with jacketed or GC bullets.

The Alexander Henry 450EX that I had shot well with 46 gr 4198, foam wad and a 325 fr HC GC bullet and also 42 gr 4198, foam wad, and a 405 gr HC GC bullet.

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: Edward Lang 450BPE on a Webley Screw Grip Action [Re: 85lc]
      #391818 - 31/05/25 12:27 PM

Thanks for sharing the 450 loads Roy. I owe you a proper response when we are not traveling. I’ll also need to pick your brain re oval bore 450 loads as there is also a Lancaster inbound.

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