Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

Pages: 1
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40649
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
A discussion on double rifle optics and sights
      #391224 - 19/04/25 06:07 AM

A discussion on double rifle optics and sights.

Main relevancy for this discussion is for double rifles, but also a lot of relevancy for single shots, combinations, bolt actions and other firearms.

Sights such as V express sights, peep sights, dot reflex sights, other dot sights, scopes.

Some users will say a double rifle will propose only open sights are suitable for double rifles. But some wish to use scopes, other optics, red dot sights. And some shooters have aging eyesight and find open sights difficult to use. Reflex sights are sometimes an answer.

Balançe is a possible consideration. Appearance may be another.

Peep sights on a double rifle are fairly rare. Maybe another solution for some shooters?

Of relevance to double rifles is regulation of the barrels bullets points of impact. Relevant on a regulated double rifle is the sights it has been regulated for. Changing the rifles sights may affect regulation. If a double rifle has been regulated for its express sights, fitting a bulky big heavy scope may mean the double rifle no longer will regulate.

When ordering a bespoke double rifle, or having a gunmaker re-regulate an existing double rifle, adjusting the barrels, the gunmaker will have the client specify the chosen sights. Express sights, reflex sight, specific scope. It's used in the barrel regulation process. It's luck if other sights will work or not. Fiddling with reloaded ammunition may help.

Why do you choose your type of sights? On what sort of firearm? What are the advantages and disadvantages?

The most common and standard double rifle sight is the V and V express sights. Standing leaf and possibly additional leaves.




V Express sights on a W.J. Jeffery double rifle. The standard on most double rifles. These leaves are optimistically out to 500 yards on a .450 NE.

Reflex dot sights are often a choice. Small and lighter they may affect regulation to a lesser extent. Often a choice for those with failing eyesight. Astigmatism may be a factor for some, the dot circle becoming a non distinct star image. Reflex sights are 1x, non magnified. Allow a reasonably open target picture. Are considered by some to allow faster sighting.



Holosun open reflex sight. Trijicon, Docter, Leopold, and others make similar.

Some shooters choose another type of red dot sight. Like a scope in appearance. It has a red dot, or maybe other types of illuminated dot or reticle. These sights are not magnified, 1x only.





Aimpoint red dot sight, 1x no magnification.

Scopes are chosen by many double rifle owners as an alternative or addition to open sights.

Sometimes ridiculously bulky, looking out of place, possibly affecting the balance of a double rifle. They do allow lesser eyesight shooters to aim their rifles. And with magnification allow longer range shots, assuming regulation is not an issue.



The Swarovski Z6i 1-6x24 illuminated scope.



The Leupold 1-4.5x illuminated scope.

I have deliberately displayed two scopes with variable ranges beginning with a 1x magnification. With a higher but useful upper variable magnification. In this instance 4.5x and 6x.

Tubes of 30 mm and 35 mm on modern scopes are adding to their bulk,

***

My thoughts in addition to the above comments.

The standard for double rifles is a good wide open V rear sight. Perhaps with additional leaves, on an express sight. Even if we rarely use the extra leaves, they're nice to have on a quality rifle.

V sights can work very well on closer range shots. As range increases they become more difficult to sight with accurately. In pre scope times, we used to shoot with them far better than now when we've been spoiled by scopes.

Open metal sights are the most reliable, It takes much more to knock them out of alignment, comparent to optics. No battery needed either.

Peep ring sights are used on some DRs. They MAY avoid some V sight issues. I don't have any experience with DR peep sights.

Older shooters with lessening eyesight may find it difficult to use their vintage rifles equipped with open V sights. A way to continue using their vintage sights might be to fit a red dot reflex sight. As has been discussed before, vintage DR owners might refit a new express sight grooved to fit a reflex sight. Keeping the original to maintain authenticity in case the vintage rifle is sold.

Modern DRs don't have this problem, vintage authenticity, and might be already so setup.

It is also easier for shooters in the scope age to use reflex dot sights than V sights.

The reflex red dot sight may be faster to use than a V sight, the sight being in one plane, not two, plus the target. They also allow an open sight picture of the target.

The reflex sight does not have magnification.

I find, say a 2 MOA dot, rather small for quick sight acquisition, But larger dots, 2x plus MOA does not improve medium and longer range accuracy.

Being lighter and smaller a reflex sight might not affect existing regulation or as much.

These reflex sights are mostly used on handguns nowadays. Plus often on AR type rifles. Closer range, lesser accurate shooting but faster sight acquisition. Similar to a dangerous game stopping double rifle. Close range, fast shooting, fine accuracy of lesser importance.

One rarely sees open reflex sights on other rifles. Unless it's attached as a supplementary sight on a scope. Few choose to mount an open reflex sight on their .30-06 or .375.

Some shooters may choose a tube red dot sight like the aimpoint pictured, No magnification, 1x only. Personally I don't see their purpose. A variable illuminated scope with a 1x lower range does much the same. But has a zoom magnification advantage,

Scopes. For me a 1x lower magnification is essential. A 4x or 6x upper magnification allows finer shooting at longer ranges. Or on smaller targets. The 1x with both eyes open, allows quick shooting. Close range and in thick country. Yes express sights are the standard. Zooming the magnification extends the useful range.

For a combination rifle such as my 12g/.223, shooting rabbits, hares, head shooting foxes, a 1x is hopeless. I prefer a 8x scope on my bolt action. However a 4x or better a 6x is a compromise. Shooting the shotgun, no scope is of course the best by far, But a variable scope on 1x can suffice.

A variable scope might permit a DR to shoot well at medium and longer ranges. Subject to rifle accuracy and regulation bullet impacts as the target ranges is increased, As I have speculated, if one of the double rifle barrels is sighted in and tested at longer ranges, using the double rifle as a "single shot" might be a feasible alternative. There is precedent is this in some rare vintage double rifles were set up, to have one barrel, e.g. the right barrel, attuned to the rifle sight leaves for longer ranges.

An illuminated scope adds the advantages of a scope. Low light. Quicker target acquisition. Heavier and bulkier can be a disadvantage,

***

I like open express sights,

But also like the idea of a scope
essential for small game use. Very useful for medium game hunting. My 9.3x74R U/O DR has an illuminated scope, close to 1x, and 4.5x upper range. An unusual circle, with fine dot plus other reticle bits design. I'd fit a scope on a versatile .375 DR. Maybe a .416. On larger bores, I'd not use a scope. Open V sights much preferred. If my eyesight permits still in the future. Otherwise I'd be looking at a dot point reflex. And 1x plus variable scopes. Preferably a lighter scope, preferably illuminated reticle if affordable.

***

Please post your thoughts, comments, what you use and why? Everyone has their own preferences and experiences.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27698
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: NitroX]
      #391232 - 20/04/25 01:38 AM

Check ALL variable scopes for zero at different power settings. I recall a Leuy and a Redfield both 1x5x21mm(or22m) & neither striking within an inch at 25 yards at 1x, when zeroed at 5x.
Maybe I am being too picky?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
85lc
.400 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1187
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: DarylS]
      #391233 - 20/04/25 01:57 AM

John, that is an excellent discussion. Just a couple of comments.

Red dot tube scopes: I use those on two handguns. On is a 454 Casull and the other is a 30 Merrill. I changed out tube scopes for pistol scopes which I found somewhat difficult to use in the woods.

Red dot size: I use 2 mil which I find easy to use. My hunting buddy only uses 1 mm as he says that larger dots cover up too much of the animal for accurate shooting.

Scopes look fine on double rifles however I would never mar a vintage double rifle by adding a scope.

Red dots look OK on modern rifles but looks like a big wart on a vintage rifle.

My thoughts are that if one cannot see iron sights and will not get shooting glasses to allow one to see the iron sights + target, they just need to get a modern rifle and not bugger up a nice vintage rifle.

--------------------
RB


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
pondoro62
.275 member


Reged: 15/12/12
Posts: 53
Loc: Norway
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: 85lc]
      #391358 - 28/04/25 04:41 PM

I scoped my .470 Krieghoff with a red dot Leupold, in a swing mount. Plenty eye distance..

I am very pleased with this..took 2 cape buffalo.. The scope is fast detachable when in dense bush and the red dot make for fast shots.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27698
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: pondoro62]
      #391363 - 28/04/25 11:17 PM

One good aspect of the dot dights, is both eyes open.
You see more.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1214
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: DarylS]
      #391387 - 30/04/25 08:38 AM

I too find scopes or red dot sights rather out of place aesthetically on double guns but recognise that they serve a purpose for those with compromised eyesight, as I have.
These sights are generally fine on bolt actions as we have all grown up with this concept and a rifle today with just iron sights is more the exception than the rule.

The worst aspect of scopes and red dot sights is how much they affect the carry-ability of rifles and doubles in the hand. I find it is always nice to carry and handle shotguns without the adornments of scopes etc., and when hunting buffalo, my English safari sighted Mauser 404 was a joy to carry and use but alas my eyesight required something better as time went on. First an OEG red dot was fitted then later an EER pistol scope took the red dots place. Both these sights worked well, used with both eyes open although the pistol scope can be used one eye shut if preferred.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27698
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: eagle27]
      #391390 - 30/04/25 09:35 AM

Most gun builders I know, position the rear sight so it is not in the hand while carrying. Of course, modern guns and double rifles "carry" more weight in the action, so this positioning of sights might not be possible.
A conundrum for sure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rule303
.450 member


Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5252
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: DarylS]
      #391395 - 30/04/25 12:48 PM

"Some shooters may choose a tube red dot sight like the aimpoint pictured, No magnification, 1x only. Personally I don't see their purpose. A variable illuminated scope with a 1x lower range does much the same. But has a zoom magnification advantage,"

The difference is Parallax and the eye box. With the Aimpoint it is fairly much parallax free, and the shooters eye can be close or 3 feet away. The dot does not have to be in the center of the optic and if the dot is on target, you are on target.

This is not the case with a regular rifle scope even on 1X. The Reflex sight can be used to any distance you like and if you know the hold over you will hit your target if the shooter and rifle are capable. People use to shoot to a 1000yds/mts with open sights so if the shooters eyes are capable why not do it with a reflex sight.

Edit to add. I have one of the longer Aimpoints on my 416Rigby simply because when I bought it there were no rings for the shorter Aimpoints to fit the CZ 550 about and the H1 and H2 were not in exsistance.

Edited by Rule303 (30/04/25 12:51 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40649
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: Rule303]
      #391401 - 01/05/25 12:13 AM

Some good comments on the replies. Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
HeymSR20
.300 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 249
Loc: Scotland
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: NitroX]
      #391884 - 07/06/25 02:57 AM

I have noticed over the last few years that the quality of open sights is getting very very much worse, even those sights on my old rifles seem to have gone fuzzy.

I am not a fan of red dots. I much prefer a decent little scope. And by little, I mean something with a 1” tube. On my Ferlach combination gun I mostly use it with its original 6x42 Zeiss from mid 1970’s. Its wonderfully bright, simple 4a reticle. It comes to my shoulder like a fine shotgun with the sights aligned.

I wish that 1” tubed scopes are still made by top quality makers. They are light in weight, and can be mounted nice and low. Yes on a 30 or 34mm scope there is more room for lots of elevation dialing, but on a hunting rifle whats the point. Set the sights to shoot 4cm high at 100m - and the bullet will hit within an inch or two of point of aim to 200 and if you want to shoot at 300 hold a bit high.

I do have a 1-4x20 also on claw mounts. But its a 30mm tubed S&B and its bulky. I tend not to use it. I should have bought a 1-4x18mm when these were still made.

Most of the low power scopes these days are based on the tactical needs of AR type rifles, where their bulk doesn’t matter. As for 1-8x20 - I just question why?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27698
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: HeymSR20]
      #391886 - 07/06/25 04:58 AM

I have a new Elememt scope I like on my FX Dreamline. Love.it, actually
It's a 2-16x50 with 30mm tube. Not even even close to a DR scope nor really practical on a 100 meter air rifle, but i love it for the cranking accuracy with a high trajectory small game rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40649
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: HeymSR20]
      #391898 - 08/06/25 06:49 PM

Quote:


Most of the low power scopes these days are based on the tactical needs of AR type rifles, where their bulk doesn’t matter. As for 1-8x20 - I just question why?




I would love a 1-8x20 on my 12-bore/.223 combination. 1x for the shotgun, 8x for heat shooting rabbits, hares and foxes.

Who is the maker? Is it a bulky scope?

Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
HeymSR20
.300 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 249
Loc: Scotland
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: NitroX]
      #391950 - 10/06/25 10:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Most of the low power scopes these days are based on the tactical needs of AR type rifles, where their bulk doesn’t matter. As for 1-8x20 - I just question why?




I would love a 1-8x20 on my 12-bore/.223 combination. 1x for the shotgun, 8x for heat shooting rabbits, hares and foxes.

Who is the maker? Is it a bulky scope?

Thanks.




I was looking at latest generation Schmidt & Bender Exos just the other day - it was mounted on a bolt action rifle and is bulky and heavy. Image quality at 8x is usable but does look quite fish eyed, and with a a narrow eye box. It’s good a low power. But it weighs 600 grams which is 21 oz in old money. It made the rifle feel top heavy, and on a light combination gun it would just want to capsize all the time. The objective bell is also large and bulky. They also hugely expensive.

By contrast the little leupold 1-4x20 on a 1” tube weighs a bit under 300 gram so the whole package is much better balanced.

On my combination gun I did try a Doctor 1-6x20. Again it was too bulky and heavy. It was heavier than the 6x42 Zeiss 1” tubed scope the gun was built with. And again at 6x the image was not brilliant. I swapped it with the dealer for 1-4x of same make. It’s better, but truth be told I much prefer the straight 6x42 and I have shot plenty of deer and foxes snap shooting at close range as well as out to 250 yards.

For a 12 bore /223 combination gun I would first decide whether its really a shotgun that will you take that fox thats sitting out at 60 / 70 yards, or are you looking at as a nice walk about rifle for foxes etc but with a shot barrel so you can shoot that crow in top of tree etc. For the former a little red dot sight or open sights would work well. For the latter the ideal is a 3-9x36 of good make on a 1” tube or similar on a detachable mount. You should be able to get it nice and low. At higher magnification you still get a really good image yet wind it back for close range or take it off when stop by the duck pond when you are on your way home.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40649
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: HeymSR20]
      #391952 - 11/06/25 12:21 AM

Quote:


For a 12 bore /223 combination gun I would first decide whether its really a shotgun that will you take that fox thats sitting out at 60 / 70 yards, or are you looking at as a nice walk about rifle for foxes etc but with a shot barrel so you can shoot that crow in top of tree etc. For the former a little red dot sight or open sights would work well. For the latter the ideal is a 3-9x36 of good make on a 1” tube or similar on a detachable mount. You should be able to get it nice and low. At higher magnification you still get a really good image yet wind it back for close range or take it off when stop by the duck pond when you are on your way home.




A combination 12-b/.223 for me is a farm walkabout gun. The shotgun would be for rabbits,ducks, hares, pigeons, foxes, pest birds, starlings, crows etc. Running and fying shots. A 1x scope seems to work.Ideally just a bead but removing and replacing a scope with Valley non quick detachable mounts is not fast. A red dot might work.

A red dot will not suffice for the .223 barrel. On a bolt action I'd want a 8x scope. On a combination acts might suffice I might have a 4x or 5x currently? I forget. Head shots on rabbits, hares, foxes. A larger powered scope magnucation is very useful, an 8x or 6x. A lesser power limits the headshot range. But the 1x for the shotgun is a must. So a 4x or 5x suffices for the rifle

My 12-bore/7x65R barrel set would be fine with a 1-4x scope. I'm yet to get brass for the 7x65R.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
85lc
.400 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1187
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: NitroX]
      #391956 - 11/06/25 06:41 AM

I have several 1x4 Leupold scopes and, while they are small and look right on my MS1903 and similar size rifles, performancewise, they are not as good as my 2x8 Leupold scopes. I normally leave the 2x8 scopes on 2x for hunting in the woods but can easily spun the power up to 8x for longer range shots.

Your 7x65r is a great caliber. I have looked for a double rifle in that caliber. If I boulgh one, I would put a 2x8 Leupold on it.

--------------------
RB


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4412
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: A discussion on double rifle optics and sights [Re: 85lc]
      #391961 - 11/06/25 09:01 PM

John
7x65R brass is available - albeit rather expensive!
Found getting good quality brass in the first instance is cheaper in the long run!

https://safarifirearms.com.au/lapua-brass-7x65r-100pk-sku-4ph7107/

https://www.thebarn.net.au/Products/20270181%20Norma%20Unprimed%20Cases%207x65R%20(100)/105875

this lot down your way!
https://www.scopedout.com.au/Sellier-_-Bellot-Unprimed-Rifle-Brass-20-Pack-7x65R


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
2 registered and 181 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 1082

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved