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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9452
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
new double gun
      #391017 - 06/04/25 08:30 PM

for a long time had the feeling I had to buy a new gun. you know how it is.
was a 16 ga J.P.Sauer&Sohn needle fire double gun in auction in denmark and the price was good.
its a gentleman's doublegun made maybe +/- 1865, S&S sell a lot of this in Denmark and Sweden then.

pics say more than all the words




































the gun is a copy of the original Teschner (Collath) gun







Sauer&Sohn SN 13762








I have an original case how it was sold up to the great war for guns still in service. You see a simple paper case, the primer pill was in the sabot. will post a pic of this.







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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85lc
.400 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1169
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: new double gun [Re: lancaster]
      #391023 - 07/04/25 04:53 AM

Lancaster,

Thanks for posting. That is a greatr find. I enjoyed looking at your pictures, particularly those showing the needles. The action is the olde slide and tilt as used by Lancaster (That is Charles Lancaster) and Collath plus others.

Was all of the case consumed by firing or just pushed forward by the next case? Did anyouine make water resistant cases. I don't know much about that entire era of firearms.

I assume the ramrod was necessary to "eject" a bad case. Is that correct?

--------------------
RB

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9452
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: new double gun [Re: 85lc]
      #391026 - 07/04/25 05:02 AM

the bottom end of the paper case remained probably half burned in the chamber after firing. you had to remove this or shot it out with the next load. there was never a watertight case and this would had affect the burning of the case.
more information when I am ready to shoot this gun what will happen.
yes, the ramrod was for removing a cartridge, if not working or the hunt was over.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4353
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: new double gun [Re: 85lc]
      #391031 - 07/04/25 06:07 AM

Quote:

Lancaster,

Thanks for posting. That is a greatr find. I enjoyed looking at your pictures, particularly those showing the needles. The action is the olde slide and tilt as used by Lancaster (That is Charles Lancaster) and Collath plus others.

Was all of the case consumed by firing or just pushed forward by the next case? Did anyouine make water resistant cases. I don't know much about that entire era of firearms.

I assume the ramrod was necessary to "eject" a bad case. Is that correct?



Bet a lot of us to what we were thinking 85LC!

Amazing find Lancaster, wonderful browning & engraving.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27599
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Re: new double gun [Re: 93x64mm]
      #391040 - 07/04/25 01:06 PM

a VERY interesting gun, lancaster. Please keep us informed as to it's shooting and capabilities.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: new double gun [Re: DarylS]
      #391044 - 07/04/25 03:11 PM

As one should expect from Lancaster, his new double gun is something old, unusual,and difficult to load.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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85lc
.400 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1169
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: new double gun [Re: NitroX]
      #391058 - 08/04/25 01:54 AM

Lancaster,

I am a complete novice regarding needle fire guns. My understanding of guns completely skips needle fired guns.

In the 1850s or thereabout, were needle fire cartridges readily available? I ask because the cartridge looks beyond the capability of a number of people.

I asume oine makes a bunch of paper casings using a mandrel, loads them with several drams of powder, insert a wad with a percussion cap somehow located in the center, drop in an oz of shot, and seal the top. Easier said than done.

How does one keep the percussion cap cenered with the wad? Were wads mad with a recess to hold the cap?

Is the paper nitrated so it burns or at least partially burns?

Do the needles need to be replaced often? It seems like they would be damaged or corroded.

The entire system seems very complex to me.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: new double gun [Re: 85lc]
      #391060 - 08/04/25 01:57 AM

If not properly cleaned, the needles would not last. However, if well cleaned, there would be no corrosion on them. I assume some were, some were not.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: new double gun [Re: DarylS]
      #391064 - 08/04/25 02:49 AM

until 1914 you could buy anything - the paper case and the wads with a large amount of primer compound in the base called the primer pill.



you load the powder into the case, than the wad and the shot above. the paper case was closed with a string and a knot. cases and wads were dirt cheap then and loading was simple as possible.



it was so simple it could be made with 19. century technology. today you have to glue a musket primer on the wad, thats the way to go but its no rocket science.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9452
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Re: new double gun [Re: 85lc]
      #391065 - 08/04/25 03:04 AM

Quote:

Lancaster,

I am a complete novice regarding needle fire guns. My understanding of guns completely skips needle fired guns.

In the 1850s or thereabout, were needle fire cartridges readily available? I ask because the cartridge looks beyond the capability of a number of people.

I asume oine makes a bunch of paper casings using a mandrel, loads them with several drams of powder, insert a wad with a percussion cap somehow located in the center, drop in an oz of shot, and seal the top. Easier said than done.

How does one keep the percussion cap cenered with the wad? Were wads mad with a recess to hold the cap?

Is the paper nitrated so it burns or at least partially burns?

Do the needles need to be replaced often? It seems like they would be damaged or corroded.

The entire system seems very complex to me.



yes, you could buy them loaded from the factory or you have the components - case , wad with primer and bullets for rifle cartridges. it was also common you get a bullet mould with your rifle and cast your own. you had in your relaoding stuff a powder dipper for measure the blackpowder. it was not terrible difficult for people who came from muzzle loader.

the use of percussion caps was possible but in allmost all cases you get factory mad wads in all possible caliber with a primer pill in the base. the primer pill was strong and very reliable.
the gun must be cleaned completely after shooting like a muzzle loader. thats the deal with blackpowder. of course, today with musket primer its a littlebit more for the needle but in the good old time with the pill and without any metal the needle would work sometimes thousends of shots.
anyway, making a new needle is part of the hobby.

"I asume oine makes a bunch of paper casings using a mandrel, loads them with several drams of powder, insert a wad with a percussion cap somehow located in the center, drop in an oz of shot, and seal the top. Easier said than done."

it is more less like you say

never see anything they use nitratet paper.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4353
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Re: new double gun [Re: lancaster]
      #391069 - 08/04/25 06:05 AM

Quote:

until 1914 you could buy anything - the paper case and the wads with a large amount of primer compound in the base called the primer pill.



you load the powder into the case, than the wad and the shot above. the paper case was closed with a string and a knot. cases and wads were dirt cheap then and loading was simple as possible.



it was so simple it could be made with 19. century technology. today you have to glue a musket primer on the wad, thats the way to go but its no rocket science.



It would be amazing for you to do this in a step by step process Lancaster - not rocket science for you but head scratching for us mere mortals!
How do you even make nitrated paper for starters?

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lancaster
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Posts: 9452
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Re: new double gun [Re: 93x64mm]
      #391080 - 08/04/25 02:29 PM

its not possible here to make nitrated paper anymore. for this you simply soak the paper in a potassium nitrate - water mix and let it dry.
problem is here and in many other european countrys it became impossible to buy potassium nitrate after 2001 because its a basic material for explosive. please note - after 9/11 - in the USA.
not something happen somewhere in europe.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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85lc
.400 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1169
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: new double gun [Re: lancaster]
      #391081 - 08/04/25 09:50 PM

Lancaster,

That is interesting and makes sense. There may be more nuts wanting to make a bomb than shooters of BP weapons that want to make nitrate cartridges. Of course, all it takes is one nut with a bomb to make a bad day or a bunch of people.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: new double gun [Re: 85lc]
      #391084 - 09/04/25 01:52 AM

Back in the 70's I bought Potassium Chlorate from the drug store to make my own compound for percussion caps, as none of the stores in Smithers could access percussion caps. The formula I used was used in various tube and pill locks in the 1870's through to 1900.
I found it to be very explosive (strong) but also very corrosive.
These chemicals are no longer available to the public, I assume, but haven't tried to duplicate those experiments from almost 50 years ago.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: new double gun [Re: DarylS]
      #391086 - 09/04/25 03:30 AM

potassium nitrate is used by butchers and that's what for you could buy it for. remember it well, it came in 250 gramm bags and cost 3 german mark.
this hole explosive misuse is pointless. if you want to build a bomb anyone 18 years old can buy a fireworks batterie. for example this one https://www.pyroland.de/Feuerwerkbatterien
https://www.pyroland.de/Conquisator-16-Schuss-Feuerwerk-Batterie
having 395 gramm blackpowder cost 26 euro = 1 kg blackpowder cost 65 euro

1 kg swiss blackpowder No. 1 cost now 103 euro

so what will you buy when being a price-conscious terrorist? and you don't look for the clean burn of your load.
its simply stupid.

and btw, the war in ukraine will flooded the black market in europe for decades with anything from handgrenades to bazooka.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27599
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Re: new double gun [Re: lancaster]
      #391087 - 09/04/25 06:45 AM

The Potassium Chlorate I used, not Potassium Nitrate, was used as the oxygen producer in the detonating compound of the priming mixture.
5:1:1 was the ratio, or P.C. to Charcoal and Sulfur.
I used ground up charcoal Briquets and sublimed sulfur.
I was told by a chemist that my mix used VERY highly refined sulfur and he said: "who knows what chemicals you added with the briquets?"
A piece the size of a green pea on the bench-vice anvil, if a hammer was held in one hand and smacked onto the compound, would fling the hammer back over your shoulder.
Had some good snap to it.
Potassium Perchlorate is used in the making of Pyrodex. It is 17% of the mixture and that what makes it VERY corrosive.
I was informed that Perchlorate is different than Chlorate as it has 3 extra oxygen molecules in it's chemical makeup. I didn't 'take' chemistry in school.

You are right though, it is silly to regulate the chemicals, but not the product itself.
Of course, diesel fuel and nitrate fertilizer are both easily acquired.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9452
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Re: new double gun [Re: DarylS]
      #391094 - 09/04/25 03:43 PM

don't looking for this now I am sure if a chemical can be used to make any kind of explosive its highly regulated here.
or it comes on the market in a form you can't used anymore. ammonium nitrate for example know to be an explosive together with fuel oil - ANFO - and widely used as a fertilizer is mixed with chalk it don't work this way.
no, they don't forget anything also the simple potassium permanganate is not easy to get for years now.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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