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fiatcrew
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I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber?
      #389281 - 02/02/25 01:41 PM

Well I finally did it. I found an affordable double in an obscure caliber.
The maker is Miller & Val Greiss. the caliber seems to be 10.5x47 based
on the chamber cast.
Does anyone have information on this rifle and caliber.
In a double it seems to be a deer rifle.
Thanks
Nick
PS how do I post pictures [list]

Edited by fiatcrew (02/02/25 01:46 PM)

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sharps4590
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #389319 - 03/02/25 11:53 AM

IF it is a 10.5 X 47R, I've been loading that cartridge for 10-12 years. It is just about the equivalent of our 40-82 WCF. I think it's a pretty good little cartridge, if a bit different from what we're used to. All the X47R cases are based on the 11.15 X 60R case and you'll probably have to make your cases using it as a donor. Graf's USED to have some Bertram 9 X 47R cases that could simply be necked up, IF they're still available. Supposedly an Austrian gunsmith by the name of Stahl was the developer of the 47R cases. CH-4D used to carry the loading dies. Mine are from CH-4D. It should be a fairly old firearm. Is it Nitro proofed or, even proofed at all?

My 10.5 is in a combination gun so there was no challenges with regulation. I also have a pre-1893 proof law double in 11.15 X 60R. I had to lightly duplex a load to get it to regulate. That load hovers between 2 1/2 & 3 inches at 50 yards. It also shoots cleaner than some smokeless loads I have.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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DarylS
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: sharps4590]
      #389320 - 03/02/25 01:13 PM

47mm is 1.8". I thought the .40/82 had a case length of about 2.4"?
If the equivalent to the .40/82, it must have been a smokeless ctg. or smokeless loading. 260gr. at 1,490fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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fiatcrew
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: DarylS]
      #389322 - 03/02/25 02:12 PM

Sharps
I found Quality Cartridge cases on Graffs, but not find the 9x47 brass,
I found the conversion from 11x60 but it was also recommended to use 45-70 or 300mag with a clip for a rim. The cartridge conversion book also said I could use 43 Spanish. Buffalo arms makes 43 Mauser out of 50-110 so could I use 50-70 for the shorter case? Given enough time I will figure this out, part of the fun is creating the case.
Thanks for the help
Nick

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85lc
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #389338 - 04/02/25 05:21 AM

I have a 11.15x47r and have used 9.5x47r brass from Bertram and have also used 45/70 brass. For my rifle, I was able to use 11.15x60 dies with a smiggen grounded off the bottom.

As Sharps said, the x47R brass is based upon the old military cartridge 11.15x60r which has a Mauser A head. The Mauser A head is a thick head, much thicker than a 45/70.

To form the case, I simply ran a lubed 45/70 case into the dies. However, as noted above, the Mauser A head is much thicker so the head of the reformed 45/70 case must be modified.

There are two approaches. One is adding a wire ring to the back side if the refrmed case rim and people normally make these from piano wire.

The second approach is to thinken the rim by placing the case on a vice flat and tapping the rim forward (away from the primer pocket). I used this method and cases work well.

Going off recollection, I believe I used 50 gr 2F and a 386 gr bullet. I also used 22 gr of 4198 and the 386 bullet. I also used lighter bullets.

Best success with your rifle.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: 85lc]
      #389340 - 04/02/25 05:43 AM

I have thickened the rims of .500 NE brass for making .50/70 cases, by doing as RB notes, case on a rod held in the vice. then using a centre punch and in 4 locations around the perimeter, punching the thin rim forward to create the necessary thicker rim. These worked perfectly, so that process works & works well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: DarylS]
      #389435 - 08/02/25 01:48 AM

Stahl was a gunmaker from suhl

this would be one of the over 200 different cases made from 11,2x60R mauser.
blackpowder only,imho.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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CJF
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: lancaster]
      #389454 - 08/02/25 08:13 AM

I thought ‘stahl’ was just German for ‘steel’ and not a maker.

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85lc
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: CJF]
      #389461 - 08/02/25 09:57 AM

Chris, Stahl means steel in German but there was at least one gunmaker was named Stahl. This is what I found by "googling" a gunsmith named stahl:

The rifle was apparently designed by Richard Stahl based on information
I found at http://www.archivingindustry.com/Gunsandgunmakers/directorylist.html

"Richard (or Reinhard) Stahl; Suhl in Thuringen, Germany. Two types of rifle designed by
this gunmaker may be encountered. The rarer, dating from 1869, embodied
a self cocking pivoting block action operated by a bulky two part lever in the
enlarged trigger guard ahead of the trigger. The 1873 pattern was operated by a
breech block extension lever running down the right side of the stock wrist. By
1880, Richard Stahl had turned to true Martini action rifles at the expense of
his own designs. He was succeeded by Babette Stahl"

Babette Stahl is believed to be the widow of Richard Stahl

"B. Stahl; Suhl in Thuringen. Listed in German trade directories of the 1890s
as a maker of ‘weapons and cartridge cases’ (Waffen- u. Patronenhulsenfabrik),
this business was run by Babette Stahl, the daughter (or, perhaps, widow) of
Richard Stahl, until sold in 1901 to G.C. Dornheim of Suhl."

I also found this info from a German auction house site:

"Born in Selb at court in 1832 gunsmith Reinhard Stahl was cartridge brass and arms manufacturer. He had 1858-1861 a small factory for Revolver in the US, returned to Germany in 1862 and worked in the gun factory Amberg. Until he settled in 1869 in Suhl, he constructed some revolver models. After his death his widow Babette led the factory until it's sale to Immanuel Meffert and George C. Dornheim 1901."

--------------------
RB

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Marrakai
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: 85lc]
      #389466 - 08/02/25 10:37 AM

I've got a couple of firearms with barrels that must have been made by Richard's brother, Krupp Stahl...

...and my mate has one perhaps made by his sister, Fluss Stahl.


Apologies Nick, we really did get off track here!
Look forward to seeing pics of the rifle when you get image hosting sorted. I too like obscure/rare chamberings in vintage rifles but lack the courage to tackle the European stuff!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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fiatcrew
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: sharps4590]
      #389470 - 08/02/25 02:17 PM

I was able to form cases from 45-70 by first starting the necking using 45 LC then using 44mag dies to make the ck then I usen a 6.5 MS to get to the right dimensions, then trim. I next fire formed the brass.
The cases fit and function well. What load should I muse? I purchased molds from Accurate in .422 since the bore is .419. The bullet weight will be 260 grains. I will use black powder but would like to use 5744 for smokeless if possible.
I assume this would be a good deer round.
Nick

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fiatcrew
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #389471 - 08/02/25 02:20 PM

It is pre 1892

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85lc
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #389472 - 08/02/25 03:28 PM

Nick, With a heaver bullet, (386gr), I used 22 gr of IMR 4198.

I also used a 250 gr bullet, still with 22 gr of IMR 4198. This second load seemed very mild.

I did not chronigraph these loads.

I have not used 5744 that much but see internet comments about using 26 gr pushing a 405 gr bullet in a 45/70. Cast Boolets Said Lyman 51 has the data you want. The Trapdoor loads with a 535 grain boolit run from 23-28 grains.

If I were loading for my rifle, I would probably start @ 23 gr and work upward.

Other people may have better ideas. I suggest you do more research.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: 85lc]
      #389489 - 09/02/25 05:55 AM

Hodgdon's 2023 Annual Mannual (been buying these since 2004) (.45/70 Trapdpoor loads) lists starting load for .45/70 with:

:405gr.Cast and 5744 as 24.3gr. 1,226fps and 14,500PSI
The maximum was 27.0gr. at 1,394fps and 16,100PSI.

:420gr.Cast and 5744 as 25.6gr. 1,210fps and 14,500PSI.
The maximum was 28.5gr. at 1,375fps and 16,100PSI.

:385gr.Cast and IMR4198 as 31.0gr. 1,405fps and 15,000PSI
The maximum was 33.0gr. at 1,491fps and 17,400PSI

:385gr.Cast and H 4198 as 28.0gr. 1,302fps and 13,300PSI
The maximum was 32.0gr. at 1,483fps and 14,700PSI

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sharps4590
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: DarylS]
      #389492 - 09/02/25 07:05 AM

Quote:

47mm is 1.8". I thought the .40/82 had a case length of about 2.4"?
If the equivalent to the .40/82, it must have been a smokeless ctg. or smokeless loading. 260gr. at 1,490fps.



I checked my chrono sheets for my 10.5 X 47R and the results are; 62 grs. of Schuetzen Fffg under a 260+ gr. bullet for 1379 fps. I also checked the sheets for my old 1886 in 40-82 WCF. 34 grs. of IMR-3031 with an open cell foam filler under a 260 gr. bullet gave 1448 fps. For all intents and purposes no critter is going to know the difference in 69 fps.

Yes, the 40-82 is a 2.4 in case and no, the 10.5 X47R was never a smokeless round, not to my knowledge.

Stahl does mean 'steel' in German. Reinhard Stahl is also the developer of the X47R cases. My last name is German and translates to 'shearer of sheep' and to my knowledge none of my family has sheared a sheep since we left East Prussia in the mid-1800's.

I recently worked up brass and loads for the 9 X 38R Tesching. Surprising to me that case has a smaller version of the Mauser "A" base. To achieve headspace a friend at church 3D printed some O rings to the dimension I gave him and I slip them on up to the front of the rim. I tell ya what, it works wonderfully and I don't yet know how many firings they will endure. To be certain, it is a low pressure cartridge shooting only 28 grs. of Fffg and a 170 gr. soft cast bullet. Accuracy is surprising at 50 yards.

I can't imagine a similar o ring set up wouldn't work on the re-formed 45-70 case for the 10.5.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

Edited by sharps4590 (09/02/25 07:20 AM)

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fiatcrew
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: sharps4590]
      #389555 - 11/02/25 03:38 PM

I use 27 grains of 5744 with a 405 bullet in my 45-70.
I will use black powder mostly in the 10.5x47 but still mat try smokeless.
I am a little unsure since it was not proofed.

Edited by fiatcrew (11/02/25 03:48 PM)

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sharps4590
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #389582 - 12/02/25 11:38 AM

The only relationship the 45-70 has to the 10.5 X 47R is the latter can be made from the former. Data is not interchangeable. Bullet weight for the 10.5 probably shouldn't exceed 300 grs., if that.

fiat, do you have Grahame Wrights book on "Shooting the British Double Rifle"? Ballistics care not for country of origin and I found his book most helpful when I got my first double almost 30 years ago.

If you have difficulty getting enough velocity with straight black powder, lightly duplexing the load with about 5% of SR-4759, 2400, IMR-4227 will usually remedy that difficulty. It will also bur amazingly clean. What I found amazing was that most lightly duplexed loads produce less than proof pressures of straight BP. Wright's book covers them in detail.

IF you can find any or, have it on your shelf, Trail Boss might work ok but I doubt it will regulate. I've never known anyone who tried it who got it to regulate. It always shot apart. As far as BP's, Swiss or Olde Eyensford will be your best bets. I have heard the new GOEX is pretty good but I haven't seen any, let alone tried it.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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Marrakai
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: sharps4590]
      #389583 - 12/02/25 04:52 PM

Sherman Bell published the results of his attempts to attain regulating velocity with Trail Boss in BP double rifles in the Bubblegum Journal.
Don't recall the edition, but could go trawling.
IIRC, as the Trail Boss charge was increased, velocity plateaued or began to drop as the pressure curve steepened dangerously.
He "found out for himself" that TB doesn't work in double rifles!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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fiatcrew
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: sharps4590]
      #389627 - 14/02/25 01:09 PM

Sharps, thank you for your advise and information. I cut a few bullets on my lathe
They turned out well and were 260 grains. I ordered a mold from accurate at 260 grains.
I used my bullets to finish fireforming with GOEX. I will try duplex loads because I heard they shoot cleaner.
I will also try 5744. I am going to start with 55 grains of BP and work up till I fill the case.
I do not know why someone inserted 45-70 information, but I thought I would respond.
Nick

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DarylS
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #389634 - 14/02/25 01:49 PM

As to duplex loads, my best for the .50/70 was 10gr. of IMR3031 and 60gr. black, 2F I think.
In the past, I have used SR5759 in duplex loads, but that one with IMR3031 worked like a charm in an original model 68 Sharps
barrel and shot more cleanly than the lighter loads using faster burning powder. Standard primers.
I read about using IMR3031 in a handloader magazine, or perhaps it was mentioned in BP Ctg. magazine my bro gets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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sharps4590
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: DarylS]
      #389669 - 15/02/25 08:39 AM

Quote:

As to duplex loads, my best for the .50/70 was 10gr. of IMR3031 and 60gr. black, 2F I think.
In the past, I have used SR5759 in duplex loads, but that one with IMR3031 worked like a charm in an original model 68 Sharps
barrel and shot more cleanly than the lighter loads using faster burning powder. Standard primers.
I read about using IMR3031 in a handloader magazine, or perhaps it was mentioned in BP Ctg. magazine my bro gets.



Interesting, Daryl! I've used the faster powders with excellent results but have never heard or read of using IMR-3031. It's such a versatile powder I'm not surprised to read what you wrote. The SR-4759 load I mentioned shoots cleaner than some smokeless loads I have.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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Marrakai
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: sharps4590]
      #389680 - 15/02/25 12:29 PM

Remaining off-topic, apologies, but I had always harbored the notion that the small charge first-in to a duplex load would need to be much faster than the BP charge to effect a burn well up into the powder column before main charge starts to ignite. With 2F as the main charge I assumed you would need a burn rate akin to 3 or 4F, meaning smokeless pistol powders.
So the IMR-3031 (similar to our AR-2206) does surprise me.

Very difficult to know exactly what happens at the point of ignition inside the case, so results are judged on clean burn in the barrel, better numbers on the chronograph, and tighter groups on paper. No doubt in your case Daryl, the proof is in the pudding!

Seems there's always something new to try at the loading bench!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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sharps4590
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: Marrakai]
      #389719 - 16/02/25 08:42 AM

I would imagine IMR-3031 is still faster than BP. The other side of that is that BP is only 51% efficient. The 'leftovers' are the fouling in the bore and the smoke we see. Obviously that doesn't occur with the new fangled smokeless powders. So yeah, I can see where it would clean up a BP load but, I would never have thought to try it. The other thing I noticed in Daryl's post was that with IMR-3031 he was 4 grains over over the usual recommended 10% max. Given the slower burning rate of 3031 when compared to the powders we normally use for duplex loads, I can only assume the 'overcharge' doesn't present a problem.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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85lc
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: sharps4590]
      #389725 - 16/02/25 10:55 AM

I understood that when you use a duplex charge, take the weight of nitro and triple it and delete that weight from the black powder charge to keep the pressue the same. That is, if you are loading a 450 BPE and the normal load is 120 gr of BP and you use a nitro priming load of 5 gr, then your black powder load should be 105 gr.

Now I think that is beaically correct for faster nitro powder like unique and perhaps the correction is less for slow powders like 3031.

To me, that makes sense, particulrly for weaker actions like double rifles and perhaps not as important for say a Sharps or Henry drop block.

What are your experiences?

--------------------
RB

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sharps4590
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Re: I just bought a Miller & Val Greiss what is the caliber? [Re: 85lc]
      #389744 - 17/02/25 01:04 AM

85, all I've ever used to duplex loads is SR-4759 and with that the most I've ever used is about 7 grs. and that with a 110 gr. charge of Ffg in a 500 BPE. The regular charge for that cartridge is 136 gr. in the old balloon head cases.

I have read about your '3-1' ratio and also read never to exceed 10%. I've always used the 10% rule and IIRC, have never exceeded 7%-8%. More often than not 5% has been adequate and, I've never experienced any difficulties. I'm positive either method works and probably works well. As you state, I agree the age and strength of the action matters but I don't agree that doubles are necessarily weaker. Really old ones, yes but, since its introduction doubles have been chambered in 9.3 X 74R, 375 H&H and any number of much higher pressure cartridges such as the 8 X 57, 30-06, ad infinitum.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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