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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Well_Well_Well
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Loc: Australia

Joining components - Solder replacement
#387972 - 30/11/24 01:19 PM

I’m interested in what the forum thinks;

Are there industrial glues that work in DRs?

Lots of bonding agents can deal with huge forces and temperature - many are oven cured.

Has anyone used these in a build?

I started wondering how to get Cerakote on a DR and here we are digging deeper….

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Rule303
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: Well_Well_Well]
#387982 - 01/12/24 08:53 AM

I don't know about glues but Cerakote can be oven baked and there is a cold process or version as well. So I am told.

The oven bake I would think would be a relatively low temp as it does not cause the solder holding sights etc to melt

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DarylS
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: Rule303]
#387983 - 01/12/24 09:14 AM

Kitchen oven. Max temp usually less than 450F, isn't it?
here we are. Google brought up Cerakote Temperatures:
"
The recommended temperatures for curing Cerakote depend on the type of Cerakote and the material being coated:

Elite Series: Cure at 300° Fahrenheit for 1 hour, then flash cure at 150°–180° Fahrenheit for 10–25 minutes
H-Series: Cure at 250° Fahrenheit for 2 hours, then flash cure at 150°–180° Fahrenheit for 10–25 minutes
Plastics or polymer: Cure at 150°–180° Fahrenheit for 2 hours

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: DarylS]
#387989 - 01/12/24 06:50 PM

That’s were I started wondering about adhesives as solder will (probably) melt at those temperatures whereas heat cured adhesive gets stronger.

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HeymSR20
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: Well_Well_Well]
#387991 - 01/12/24 09:26 PM

I believe some manufacturers of double guns are now using high strength epoxies for bonding on ribs etc. Things like liner barrels which in the past would have been soldered are now epoxied in.

Epoxies in terms of shear strength etc are as strong as, if not stronger than solders. But there are many different solders as well as many different epoxies so general statements can easily be disproved.

Will epoxy bonded parts still be in place in 100 years time, like 100 year old ribs on a fine double are still absolutely fine. Only time will tell.

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DarylS
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: HeymSR20]
#387993 - 02/12/24 04:53 AM

Solder has a higher melting point than any temp. for curing Cerakote.

:"Pure Lead: it has no additives or alloys and melts at 327.5°C or 621.5°F. Lead-Antimony Alloy: because lead has been compounded with antimony, it melts at a higher temperature. Lead-Tin Alloy: generally has a low melting point range of between 183-255°C or 361-491°F based on the composition."

I am not familiar with the the glues/epoxies you are talking about.
The strongest glues I am familiar with, break adhesion at 300F.

I let Google search for me and found this JB Weld Product:
"About this product:
HighHeat is a hand mixable epoxy putty stick specifically formulated to bond and repair materials that will be exposed to high temperatures in automotive and industrial maintenance applications. It cures to a tough, hard bond with little to no shrinkage. This industrial-strength product outperforms conventional epoxy putties at high temperatures and sets in 1 hr at room temperature. After 8 hr, it can be drilled, tapped, machined, ground, filed and painted. HighHeat is rated at a tensile strength of 800 psi and cures to a machine grey in color. It is able to withstand continuous heat exposure of 400 deg F and intermittent heat exposure to 550 deg F.

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3DogMike
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: Well_Well_Well]
#388006 - 03/12/24 03:17 AM

Quote:

I’m interested in what the forum thinks;

Are there industrial glues that work in DRs?

Lots of bonding agents can deal with huge forces and temperature - many are oven cured.

Has anyone used these in a build?

I started wondering how to get Cerakote on a DR and here we are digging deeper….

Curiosity: I'm guessing that you imagining joining the barrels and/or ribs with a permanent adhesive? The lumps?
This begs the question of how one would get the barrels regulated (or if need be, re regulated) if joined in such a manner?

This brings to mind the "California Rigby" double rifles of which I had read that the ribs (at least on some of them) were "glued" in place.
Can you say Bodger Gunsmithing?

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: 3DogMike]
#388277 - 16/12/24 07:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I’m interested in what the forum thinks;

Are there industrial glues that work in DRs?

Lots of bonding agents can deal with huge forces and temperature - many are oven cured.

Has anyone used these in a build?

I started wondering how to get Cerakote on a DR and here we are digging deeper….

Curiosity: I'm guessing that you imagining joining the barrels and/or ribs with a permanent adhesive? The lumps?
This begs the question of how one would get the barrels regulated (or if need be, re regulated) if joined in such a manner?

This brings to mind the "California Rigby" double rifles of which I had read that the ribs (at least on some of them) were "glued" in place.
Can you say Bodger Gunsmithing?
- Mike

More or less.

As for regulation, it would be as now, held in place by another means prior to final joining. Re-regulating would be another matter.

There is nothing bodgy about a well researched and planned process, which is why I am asking.

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: DarylS]
#388278 - 16/12/24 07:37 PM

Quote:

Solder has a higher melting point than any temp. for curing Cerakote.

:"Pure Lead: it has no additives or alloys and melts at 327.5°C or 621.5°F. Lead-Antimony Alloy: because lead has been compounded with antimony, it melts at a higher temperature. Lead-Tin Alloy: generally has a low melting point range of between 183-255°C or 361-491°F based on the composition."

I am not familiar with the the glues/epoxies you are talking about.
The strongest glues I am familiar with, break adhesion at 300F.

I let Google search for me and found this JB Weld Product:
"About this product:
HighHeat is a hand mixable epoxy putty stick specifically formulated to bond and repair materials that will be exposed to high temperatures in automotive and industrial maintenance applications. It cures to a tough, hard bond with little to no shrinkage. This industrial-strength product outperforms conventional epoxy putties at high temperatures and sets in 1 hr at room temperature. After 8 hr, it can be drilled, tapped, machined, ground, filed and painted. HighHeat is rated at a tensile strength of 800 psi and cures to a machine grey in color. It is able to withstand continuous heat exposure of 400 deg F and intermittent heat exposure to 550 deg F.

That’s very interesting. I understand that temperature for curing cerakote has lowered over time.

The search continues…

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HeymSR20
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: Well_Well_Well]
#388455 - 27/12/24 08:32 AM

Solders are effectively a chemical bond where a liquid that cures bonds the two steel surfaces. An epoxy, or other glue joint is also a liquid that on curing forms a strong bond between the surfaces.

I did the calcs between solder and west systems epoxy on gluing a 22 liner barrel into a drilled out barrel. In terms of sheer strength the west systems epoxy is stronger than solder. And when you factor in the difficulties of making a good solder joint compared to an epoxy joint, epoxy wins.

I was happy using an epoxy with a c200°c softening point as in a 22 single shot you are not going to get a high temperature.

The late Victorian gunsmiths used all the latest technologies of their days. And they were quick to embrace new technologies as they became available. I am sure they would be embracing all the new technologies of today.

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DarylS
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: HeymSR20]
#388461 - 27/12/24 12:38 PM

My new knee prosthetic is glued in with a 50/50 mix of "bone glue" or epoxy by any other name. It is mixed in a vacuum, and has a 12 minute "working time".
That was 9 years ago now and still holding. Don't know what they are using now or it THE Epoxy used, has changed.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Hunter4752001
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: DarylS]
#388492 - 28/12/24 11:17 AM

Also need to factor in the intended use of the DR. There's a significant diference in heat between a couple of shots while hunting vs a match situation where rapid strings of more than 6 shots are required. Most current DR manufacturers have a warning in the fine print that solders can come aparts under repeated rapid fire situations.

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DarylS
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: Hunter4752001]
#388493 - 28/12/24 11:32 AM

Found this:
"The melting point of 50/50 solder is between 361° and 421° Fahrenheit (183° and 216° Celsius)."
&
"The melting point of soft silver bearing solder can range from 430°F to 535°F. Some examples include:

Harris Stay Brite #8 Lead Free Silver bearing Solder: Has a solidus of 430°F

Stay-Brite silver-bearing solders: Have a temperature range of 430°F to 535°F
Hi-Line Silver Bearing Solder Paste: Flows smoothly at 430°F

Of course, the "hard" silver solder has much higher melting points, akin to "brazing" temperatures.

"Hard silver solder melts at a temperature of 1,365°F (741°C) to 1,450°F (788°C). It's often used for jewelry making and repairs, especially for bezels and as the first step in multiple soldering.
Here are some other types of silver solder and their melting temperatures:

Easy: 671–718°C (silver content 65%)
Medium: 691–738°C (silver content 70%)
Extra easy: 655–710°C

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: DarylS]
#388496 - 28/12/24 03:27 PM

For rejointing barrels I have only ever used tin with a dash of silver, maybe 5%, as per traditional "tinning" of sights, barrels etc.
Brownells used to sell it by the pound under the name Hi-force 44. Flows at 475 F and is rated at 14,000 to 28,000 psi tensile strength.

Just thought I'd toss this in as tin was traditionally used and it seems to be left out of the mix in this thread.

My knowledge of modern epoxies is obviously "dated" to say the least! I had assumed all epoxies softened with heat. That's how we used to get them apart!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: Marrakai]
#388508 - 29/12/24 04:55 AM

My post above shows the stats on tin/lead mix, ie: 50/50 used to be known as plumber's solder.
I still have a couple bars of that for adding to my lead mixes.
The x-ray room wall sheet lead I have is too pure and needs 1/2" of 50/50 added to a 20 pound pot for reduced dross developement and improved casting properties. This does not appreciably harden the pure lead, at least nothing measurable.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_EXPRESS
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: DarylS]
#388524 - 29/12/24 09:26 PM

50/50 is what we used for casting the tips on the Hartford style Sharps we made. Hard enough it doesn't mar super easy, shines up nice and the melting point is low enough the wood can take it. Just have to warm the barrel a bit so it flows good

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DarylS
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: 450_EXPRESS]
#388534 - 30/12/24 05:50 AM

Taylor used high speed babbit for our forend tips and it worked just fine. Stayed quite shiny and mark free for years.
He still has his and it looks just like it did after he poured it.
We had purchased barreled actions, his a .45 3 1/3" and mine was a .50 3 1/4". He stocked them both in Claro walnut.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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2152hq
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Re: Joining components - Solder replacement [Re: DarylS]
#388658 - 05/01/25 06:16 AM

Soft solder will work just fine if the joint to be soldered is prepared right.
Soft solder does not make a good void or crack filler. In that role it is extremely weak.
Solder will cold form, swage and move around if sufficient pressure is placed upon the part(s) that it is holding and the solder in more than a tinned coating. That's where the joint can get loose and fail.
The sweat solder joining of ribs or other mounts must be a close metal to metal fit for the process to work to it's greatest strength.

I've used 50/50 lead-tin for the last 40+ yrs to re-rib mostly SxS shotguns and attach so called 'Solid ribs'. Also used it to repair and re-rib more than a few DR's over that time.
If done right, it works fine.
Do a poor job of fitting and/or a poor solder job on top of that and it will fail.

Epoxy has been used for yrs to attach ribs with. PolyChoke started using it on shotguns back in the 60's and even the stuff that was available then kept the aluminum ribs they sold in place even on the hard shuffling shotguns like the A5.

Marlin, when they re-introduced the LCSmith in the late 60's early70's attached the ribs to those already polished and hot blued bbls with cheap epoxy. The ribs are aluminum on those and they were sourced from PolyChoke IIRC.
The same brown quick mix epoxy that was used to attach the ribs was then used to 'glas-bed' the butt stock and forend of the guns.
Quality showing from every angle. But they held up if the parts were clean and the epoxy was mixed right.
How they are doing today I have no idea, you just don't see these editions around anymore to tske look at them.

They had bigger troubles with the bbl's at the time of mfg'r anyway and more than a few came back in and were involved in lawsuits with burst bbls at the chamber(s).
An entirely different matter from the above of course.

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