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Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo
      #387542 - 03/11/24 12:34 AM


Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo

https://youtu.be/qglg5ON7ubM?si=ulA1bi57POLWlc3c

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DarylS
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: NitroX]
      #387545 - 03/11/24 04:43 AM

Interesting. I'd have probably shot too high on the head on that charging buffalo, or too low.
I see the narrator shot that one up on the spine.
I do recall Elmer Keith saying to shoot them on the point of the nose, but that most obviously would depend on the "type" of charge, high or low. Elmer noted they usually charge with head high and that was accompanied by his suggestion on shot placement.

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: DarylS]
      #387559 - 04/11/24 12:37 PM

Thats an excellent video !!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for sharing.


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eagle27
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #387562 - 04/11/24 06:22 PM

My only criticism would be with the charging buffalo the double users did not reload immediately even though the buff was seemingly down and out. The bolt guy fired one shot and loaded instantly, the PH on the left only seemed to fire one shot but did not reload that spent barrel and the PH in the middel emptied his double then turns to the camera to talk all the while not using the two rounds held in his fingers to reload immediately.
After having a supposed down and out buffalo unexpectedly get up on him early in his hunting career Pondoro Taylor thereafter observed the practice of having his tracker hamstring downed buffalo and until that was achieved he treated them as alive and dangerous.


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93mouse
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: eagle27]
      #387563 - 05/11/24 12:31 AM

Was scrolling through my notes and found this - excerpts from late Ganyana on the matter of Buffalo charges etc - tho long I find it an excelent reading, taken from a man that was around - Man I miss HIM - quote:

"Where to aim? It all depends...
If you have a double, you always put your first shot into the chest, either a low chest shot to hit the heart, or a high shot (just under the chin) to take out the arteries and hopefully hit the spine. If you have a bolt action or single shot, well that just depends on how far away the buff is when you get the chance for your first shot. If more than 10 paces, put a round in the chest and do an amazingly fast reload so you can go for the spine/brain if it is still coming.

A heart shot buffalo might flatten you but it is unlikely to come round to finish the job. The second shot is reserved for point blank range:- on the nose if the head is still up, over the top of the head into the neck if the head has been dropped.

Why over the top of the head? simple. Buffalo have small brains and well cushioned. The spine is a much larger target and even a hit on one of the spiney processes will cause concussion and drop the animal, giving you time to prove that you can cycle and fire a bolt action rifle as fast as a Semi Auto in moments of need.

Of course, if the buff is fairly buggered anyway when it begins its charge, the head will be held low from the beginning, so shoot over the head into the spine right from the start.

On the Buffalo eradication programmes most of the buffalo we shot were effectively "charging". They were driven onto us by helicopter, and once the shooting started they were pretty belligerent.

The least effective shots were those that went above the heart but below the spine. I had to follow up a cow that had been shot here with a .416 Rigby. When I finally caught up with here 9 hours later she was in fine form, and a .375 on the nose at 2 paces was needed to settle the matter. I dissected her to find out what had gone wrong:- nothing really. Bullet (a solid) had passed over the heart, between the lungs, on through the stomach and intestines and left below the anus (giving her a hysterectomy on the way). The wound would have proved fatal in the long run but didn't even slow her up after 9 hours. In 30 frontal shots I learned that you hit heart, spine or brain or you are in trouble. Later as a PH, I have seen this with clients. Those that place their shots accurately at the chosen target have no trouble.

It is also the reason to wait 30 mins before starting a follow up. Adrenaline makes buffalo bullet proof. A 9,3x62 in the chest stops a buffalo that is just running. Seen an angry buff take 4 .577 Nitro rounds in the chest (and a .505 through the lungs from the side), and still throw Clive Connolly, breaking his Westly Richards double in the process. Moral. Shoot straight and don't wound the bastards in the first place.

Any charge that starts more than 15 paces away is going to get a chest shot just under the chin from me and then I'll reload and wait until I cannot miss a spine or brain shot.

A buffalo charge actually starts out quite slowly, and adrenaline flowing through you makes everything seem to slow down even more. The only time you do not have a chance for two shots with a bolt action or even a single (like a Ruger No 1) is in thick jesse, or when you make the mistake of running after the buffalo you have just shot to find that it has turned around behind some cover and is now already running at full speed towards you and you are running at full speed towards it! Bad bad plan.

The head held high is usually the sign of an unwounded or lightly wounded animal. Have settled two charges with shots on the point of the nose during the eradication days. Neither buff was critically hit.

If you want to know why the government guys got all the practice on the wounded animals, it was because all the local farmers joined in the culls using everything from .22 hornit (the terminal F**kwit who tried it reckoned Bell used a .22 on buff so his hornit should be fine. Bell actually used a .22 savage high power - but this fellow killed three and wounded two on that cull) to .505's, but mostly the farmers used 7.62 NATO rifles with ball ammo. All animals that over ran the stop line, were wounded or otherwise got away had to be followed up and dispatched. Most of the guys were game for the cull, but generally politely declined to help follow up the wounded, usually citing unsuitable rifles, kids back home, visitors for lunch etc. The poor bastards in the helicopter did most of the finishing off (get the angle wrong in your shoulder and a .458 will bruise you from finger tip to waist and hanging out of the door on a helio it's easy to get the angle wrong). The rest the government guys had to follow up. My diary shows that one in six follow ups resulted in a charge. as an 18 year old will more balls than brains I had a couple of narrow misses, - walked past one that then charged from behind etc. I grew up quick!!!!

Two points. I use a 9,3 because one of the sons of darkness put a 7.62 bullet through my right shoulder! I own a .404 but every time I fire it, I have to book a visit to the physio and take some propon! The surgeon has had to replace the bolt that holds the arm to the socket twice. That siat though, the reason I own a .404, and until I got married a .450NE, is that when things are going wrong a 9,3 is awfully small. The operational plan is to carry the 9,3 and if needed swap to the .404 when necessary (like a follow up). Just things have never quite worked out that way and have never shot an animal with the .404, .450 or any of the other cannons I have owned.

I use Woodleigh solids and some bonded core, flat nosed softs that Ken Stuart in South Africa made for me. When I started out on the buffalo eradication, I had a government issue Bruno (CZ) 9,3 and a choice of ancient Kynoch ammo or fresh RWS TUG's. Opted for the TUG's. All penetrated sufficiently to brain or spine the largest bull.

In reply to an earlier question on open vs scope sights. I aways used a ghost ring sight once I bought my own rifle (a Mauser factory original). Lately I have been playing with a surefire red dot and a Leopold 1-4 scope on the new Dumoulin rifle I have. Conclusion: - The sight is irrelevant, provided the rifle fits and the sight does not obstruct access to the bolt handle. At 10 paces in less than a second- who has time for sights. Keep both eyes open look at the target and put the bullet there. Most scopes though obstruct access to the bolt- even if only slightly and that I don't like.

It is also the reason why I dislike many heavy rifles like A square. Delightful to shoot, but impossible to snap shoot with. The rifle you need to deal with a charge must point as well as any ten grand trap shotgun.

I used to practice extensively with my F.N. FAL, for night contact work (when you cannot see the sights anyway), and the closest I came to getting stomped by a buff was on a night exercise with some trainee PH's and a new ranger. The buff charged from about 40 m. 17 .375 rounds and 3 .404 rounds went crashing in its direction (a fair number hitting), until it reached about 10 paces. Then the game scout holding the spotlight panicked, threw the light at the buff and took off running. I could just make out the outline of the buff against the sky and decided it was time to intervene or somebody was going to get hurt. I wasn't planning on shooting anything and only had my F.N. A triple tap got the spine and the brain. Next morning, following up another animal that had unfortunately been wounded in the "contact" I walked right passed the wounded one that had circled round and lay up behind an ant heap. I was concentrating on the bush ahead whilst a game scout followed the spoor. Tracks lead straight ahead through open grassland- but the buff came from behind. I double tapped it in the spine at about ten paces.

My experience is that a great rifle that you can point shoot well is far more important than calibre. Balance is everything and don't give me any rifle weighing much over 8lbs unless it is an F.N."

Lastly, The nicest clients are those who can shoot. I don't like to even unsling my rifle. I would rather watch through my Bino's and enjoy the hunt than have to worry about backing up the client. I don't care if the client is using a 30-06 provided, I have confidence in his ability to put it where it counts first time.

Edited by 93mouse (05/11/24 12:34 AM)


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93x64mm
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: 93mouse]
      #387565 - 05/11/24 07:10 AM

He certainly knew his stuff 9.3Mouse!
Been there & done that many a time!


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Rule303
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: 93mouse]
      #387567 - 05/11/24 09:58 AM

In general a good informative video.
93mouse, thanks for posting the info from Ganyana. The man knew a thing or 3.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: 93mouse]
      #387569 - 05/11/24 06:51 PM

Watching the video, I'd probably shoot a buffalo too high in the head. I must one day look at a cross sectioned head or skull. From the video, the cartoon graphic image looks the brain position much lower than I'd expect. I reckon most guys would go for a between the eyes shot. Head held high, too high. Head held down, perhaps would work?

The video says, head held down, go for the spine.Something I've read but wouldn't consider. Now I would. The spine is bigger than the brain, wow.

Frontal chest shot. Depends on the angle as well. I've read the point of the V under the neck is the correct spot. On the fave of it, looks too low for me, but one must consider the angle of the same shot, looked at from the broadside view of the heart and lungs and spine, if it misses them all it is a slow kill shot and as Ganyana said, a nine hours follow up on a perky buffalo.

A broadside shot breaking the shoulder might not kill the buffalo but may disable a buffalo, orbslow it down a lot. The heart and lungs are also far easier shot.

I'd like to see some Big Game style paper targets feature some of the varying charging positions. Head up way high, the buffalo standing and looking at you, is the usual image. Head up charging would be a good variation. Head down charging is rarely a paper targets image but should be. How many of us would shoot at the spine above the head?

Another consideration. In the excitement of the hunt, follow up and charge, most of us shoot way too early, too far away. Looking at Ganyana's comment 15 yards is considered a long distance by him! Those "Mark Sullivan" brain shots can only be done at very close range. Or Ganyana's over the head spine shot. Who among us could wait that long and let it get that close.

I know with my water buffalo charge, it started at about 90 metres. When it stood up on the hill above me,mi shot and completely missed. It started the charge. I fired the second barrel. Probably hit it to no immediate effect. Empty rifle. Fuck, he's going to kill me! Reload the double, maybe run around this little tree and shoot it in the nose at the end of my muzzle as it chases me. It instead crashed past me at about 15 paces so used the one barrel loaded to put a broadside bullet in. Three hours, R0Five hours, follow up, up and down the creek, crossing to the other side, found it dead in the waist deep water.

Lessons:
1. Shoot better at 90 metres with my ,450 double. Take more time to make a good shot, missing byba metre, it must have been an excitement driven bad shot. One is also thinking, I must hit it before it runs away again.

2, Wait 30 minutes. Hard to do. But the water buffalo I'd shot in the back of the lungs area or forward gut was lying down. Found him on the hill under a tree lying down 5 to 10 minutes later. I didn't time it, Just set the position on the GPS and started following. We don't have skilled trackers, we need tondomit ourselves. Waiting 30 minutes that buffalo might have stiffened up, maybe bled to death? But without good trackers I think I'd still go straight away.

I had shot this buffalo broadside too far back, as a calf or younger buffalo's head pointing backwards, obscured most of the chest of the bull. I aimed to miss the nose of the young buffalo.

3. If shooting at long range a bolt action would have three to five shots available. Very useful at 90 metres. Several shots could be fired on a 90 metres charge.

4. If shooting to stop a charge WAIT for it to get real close. If with a double, you've used one barrel already, tough to face a charging bull at very close range with one barrelm alone.

This is where a double is far better. Two shots, instantly available at close range, Few bolt action shooters can emulate this, physically impossible,

5. Lastly, during the follow up, I was in the high grass for maybe 75 metres, END OF MUZZLE VISIBILITY. Big bore double rifle territory.

Practice reloading under pressure. Practice shooting charging targets under pressure. Big Game type charging targets shoots, maybe static, then charging, are a great practice discipline. Even better actual real life charging beasts. Pigs, running pugsm charging pigs, Charging scrub bulls, Scrub bulls are FAR more likely to charge than any other bovine IMO. Charging water buffalo, cape Buffalo, banteng. The real thing. I've never shot charging eleohant. Thankfully dropped them, frontal brain shots, before any charge,

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: 93mouse]
      #387570 - 05/11/24 07:54 PM

Mouse, thanks for posting the Ganyana article/comments. I'll later repost it on its own thread.


Quote:

Was scrolling through my notes and found this - excerpts from late Ganyana on the matter of Buffalo charges etc - tho long I find it an excelent reading, taken from a man that was around - Man I miss HIM -




"Ganyana" online was usually the late Don Health. Though I believe sometimes another person used the alias. I met Don at the Norma factory in Sweden. A short tour in the mostly empty factory, because the Swedes were all hunting moose that week. His wife and children all became Swedish I believe and learned Swedish. I wonderbifbtheybarecstill living there? Don didn't even attempt it, saying it wouldn't work for him. An unusual character. A good writer of relevant comments and some articles.

Quote:

"Where to aim? It all depends...
If you have a double, you always put your first shot into the chest, either a low chest shot to hit the heart, or a high shot (just under the chin) to take out the arteries and hopefully hit the spine. If you have a bolt action or single shot, well that just depends on how far away the buff is when you get the chance for your first shot. If more than 10 paces, put a round in the chest and do an amazingly fast reload so you can go for the spine/brain if it is still coming.




Note "more than 10 paces" is a long way! I doubt 98% of bolt action shooters could chamber a second round on a charging buffalo atb10mpaces ...

As for the recent preaching of some wannabe South African internet PHs of not working the bolt at the shoulder, but dropping it down to work the bolt, and "peer around" then reshoukderbto shoot the rifle .... Not an ffffing chance.

Quote:

A heart shot buffalo might flatten you but it is unlikely to come round to finish the job.


.

OK ...

Quote:

The second shot is reserved for point blank range:- on the nose if the head is still up, over the top of the head into the neck if the head has been dropped.




Good to note.

Quote:

Why over the top of the head? simple. Buffalo have small brains and well cushioned. The spine is a much larger target and even a hit on one of the spiney processes will cause concussion and drop the animal, giving you time to prove that you can cycle and fire a bolt action rifle as fast as a Semi Auto in moments of need.

Of course, if the buff is fairly buggered anyway when it begins its charge, the head will be held low from the beginning, so shoot over the head into the spine right from the start.




Quote:

On the Buffalo eradication programmes most of the buffalo we shot were effectively "charging". They were driven onto us by helicopter, and once the shooting started they were pretty belligerent.




Quote:

The least effective shots were those that went above the heart but below the spine. I had to follow up a cow that had been shot here with a .416 Rigby. When I finally caught up with here 9 hours later she was in fine form, and a .375 on the nose at 2 paces was needed to settle the matter. I dissected her to find out what had gone wrong:- nothing really. Bullet (a solid) had passed over the heart, between the lungs, on through the stomach and intestines and left below the anus (giving her a hysterectomy on the way). The wound would have proved fatal in the long run but didn't even slow her up after 9 hours. In 30 frontal shots I learned that you hit heart, spine or brain or you are in trouble. Later as a PH, I have seen this with clients. Those that place their shots accurately at the chosen target have no trouble.




Quote:

It is also the reason to wait 30 mins before starting a follow up. Adrenaline makes buffalo bullet proof.




The waiting 30 minutes is hard to do. But allows a badly wounded buffalo to stiffen up.

But if one is hunting by oneself, with no good trackers, I still think one needs to go straight away. Those "nine hours" tracking jobs are not possible.

Quote:

A 9,3x62 in the chest stops a buffalo that is just running. Seen an angry buff take 4 .577 Nitro rounds in the chest (and a .505 through the lungs from the side), and still throw Clive Connolly, breaking his Westly Richards double in the process.




Quote:

Moral. Shoot straight and don't wound the bastards in the first place.




Best advice of all.

Some argue it's better to use a sub standard cartridge if one shoots it better. However it's these times, charges, when big bores show their worth.

Note Don mentions carrying a 9.3x62, and if possible a ,404 by a tracker for the dangerous times. Even if he never used the .404.

Quote:

Any charge that starts more than 15 paces away is going to get a chest shot just under the chin from me and then I'll reload and wait until I cannot miss a spine or brain shot.




Funny, 15 paces is a long way away. ......

Quote:

A buffalo charge actually starts out quite slowly, and adrenaline flowing through you makes everything seem to slow down even more. The only time you do not have a chance for two shots with a bolt action or even a single (like a Ruger No 1) is in thick jesse, or when you make the mistake of running after the buffalo you have just shot to find that it has turned around behind some cover and is now already running at full speed towards you and you are running at full speed towards it! Bad bad plan.




Quote:

The head held high is usually the sign of an unwounded or lightly wounded animal. Have settled two charges with shots on the point of the nose during the eradication days. Neither buff was critically hit.




Quote:

If you want to know why the government guys got all the practice on the wounded animals, it was because all the local farmers joined in the culls using everything from .22 hornit (the terminal F**kwit who tried it reckoned Bell used a .22 on buff so his hornit should be fine. Bell actually used a .22 savage high power - but this fellow killed three and wounded two on that cull) to .505's, but mostly the farmers used 7.62 NATO rifles with ball ammo. All animals that over ran the stop line, were wounded or otherwise got away had to be followed up and dispatched. Most of the guys were game for the cull, but generally politely declined to help follow up the wounded, usually citing unsuitable rifles, kids back home, visitors for lunch etc. The poor bastards in the helicopter did most of the finishing off (get the angle wrong in your shoulder and a .458 will bruise you from finger tip to waist and hanging out of the door on a helio it's easy to get the angle wrong). The rest the government guys had to follow up. My diary shows that one in six follow ups resulted in a charge. as an 18 year old will more balls than brains I had a couple of narrow misses, - walked past one that then charged from behind etc. I grew up quick!!!!




Quote:

Two points. I use a 9,3 because one of the sons of darkness put a 7.62 bullet through my right shoulder! I own a .404 but every time I fire it, I have to book a visit to the physio and take some propon! The surgeon has had to replace the bolt that holds the arm to the socket twice. That siat though, the reason I own a .404, and until I got married a .450NE, is that when things are going wrong a 9,3 is awfully small. The operational plan is to carry the 9,3 and if needed swap to the .404 when necessary (like a follow up). Just things have never quite worked out that way and have never shot an animal with the .404, .450 or any of the other cannons I have owned.




Lesson here is irrespective of the benefits of bigger bores. Using something you can handle and shoot IT WELL is a better
deal.

Quote:

I use Woodleigh solids and some bonded core, flat nosed softs that Ken Stuart in South Africa made for me. When I started out on the buffalo eradication, I had a government issue Bruno (CZ) 9,3 and a choice of ancient Kynoch ammo or fresh RWS TUG's. Opted for the TUG's. All penetrated sufficiently to brain or spine the largest bull.




Quote:

In reply to an earlier question on open vs scope sights. I aways used a ghost ring sight once I bought my own rifle (a Mauser factory original). Lately I have been playing with a surefire red dot and a Leopold 1-4 scope on the new Dumoulin rifle I have. Conclusion: - The sight is irrelevant, provided the rifle fits and the sight does not obstruct access to the bolt handle. At 10 paces in less than a second- who has time for sights. Keep both eyes open look at the target and put the bullet there. Most scopes though obstruct access to the bolt- even if only slightly and that I don't like.




Why a side by side double rifle is best.

Quote:

It is also the reason why I dislike many heavy rifles like A square. Delightful to shoot, but impossible to snap shoot with. The rifle you need to deal with a charge must point as well as any ten grand trap shotgun.




IMO a balanced rifle is better than a lightweight rifle. A side by side double rifle.

Note Ganyana couldn't afford an expensive double rifle, so doesn't have experience with them.

Quote:

I used to practice extensively with my F.N. FAL, for night contact work (when you cannot see the sights anyway), and the closest I came to getting stomped by a buff was on a night exercise with some trainee PH's and a new ranger. The buff charged from about 40 m. 17 .375 rounds and 3 .404 rounds went crashing in its direction (a fair number hitting), until it reached about 10 paces. Then the game scout holding the spotlight panicked, threw the light at the buff and took off running. I could just make out the outline of the buff against the sky and decided it was time to intervene or somebody was going to get hurt. I wasn't planning on shooting anything and only had my F.N. A triple tap got the spine and the brain. Next morning, following up another animal that had unfortunately been wounded in the "contact" I walked right passed the wounded one that had circled round and lay up behind an ant heap. I was concentrating on the bush ahead whilst a game scout followed the spoor. Tracks lead straight ahead through open grassland- but the buff came from behind. I double tapped it in the spine at about ten paces.




Practice is the key word.

Quote:

My experience is that a great rifle that you can point shoot well is far more important than calibre. Balance is everything and don't give me any rifle weighing much over 8lbs unless it is an F.N."[.quote]

Balance and weight are different things. A good side by side had the best balance. Most bolt actions have no balance. A FN FAL had zero balance.

Quote:

Lastly, The nicest clients are those who can shoot. I don't like to even unsling my rifle. I would rather watch through my Bino's and enjoy the hunt than have to worry about backing up the client. I don't care if the client is using a 30-06 provided, I have confidence in his ability to put it where it counts first time.




And the client who can shoot also enjoys it more.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Marrakai
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: NitroX]
      #387576 - 06/11/24 01:31 PM

Great account from Ganyana, plenty of experience there showing through. Some good insights too.

Couple of things: I had no idea Don was restricted to the 9.3x62 due to shoulder injury. A happy circumstance that his personal limitation contributed significantly to the contemporary appreciation (perhaps even resurrection?) of the 9.3 as a capable African big game cartridge in the right hands.

Also, I have used the high frontal shot on our Asian buffalo numerous times with great success, as they often turn to face something they're unsure of, and then raise their head high to try to get a scent. The high chest shot core-punches a fair length of spine where it dips down between the shoulder-blades and will drop even the biggest bull on the spot. A follow-up shot may be required if the animal is still trying to toss its head from side to side, but usually it will be stone dead by the time the hunter approaches.

This is not a comment on charging Asian buffalo of course, never had the opportunity to deal with a committed charge in Oz and hope I can go to my grave without such an experience!
Reckon our buff might charge with head up though, making a stopper spine shot over the top of the horns quite risky.

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When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: Marrakai]
      #387579 - 06/11/24 07:35 PM

Quote:

Great account from Ganyana, plenty of experience there showing through. Some good insights too.

...

Also, I have used the high frontal shot on our Asian buffalo numerous times with great success, as they often turn to face something they're unsure of, and then raise their head high to try to get a scent. The high chest shot core-punches a fair length of spine where it dips down between the shoulder-blades and will drop even the biggest bull on the spot. A follow-up shot may be required if the animal is still trying to toss its head from side to side, but usually it will be stone dead by the time the hunter approaches.

This is not a comment on charging Asian buffalo of course, never had the opportunity to deal with a committed charge in Oz and hope I can go to my grave without such an experience!
Reckon our buff might charge with head up though, making a stopper spine shot over the top of the horns quite risky.




I think so too. At least my memory says so. However in the last few yards they may drop their heads down. I've seen that in drawings and paintings from India, Sri Lanka. That beautiful crescent about to hit you! I've never seen that at close range, the last few yards.

What do you think? If you've wounded a water buffalo, do you wait 30 minutes? Or follow up pretty much straight away?


I think maybe on say the Cobourg Peninsula, the softer soils allow easier tracking. In Central Arnhemland, the hard rocky soils make it difficult for non expert black trackers. And Coastal areas, the wetlands would might tracking very hard at times.

--------------------
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Marrakai
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: NitroX]
      #387582 - 06/11/24 10:26 PM

Don't mean to drag this thread away from the marvelous video and article on managing a Cape Buffalo charge, but the Asian Buffalo's behavior when wounded calls for different tactics IMHO.
On the rare occasion where a bull has legged it after the shot, I have always tried to keep them in sight at all costs.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Rule303
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: NitroX]
      #387607 - 07/11/24 07:41 AM

"A FN FAL had zero balance."

Totally disagree with this. The FN FAL/SLR has great balance and comes to the shoulder very smoothly and damned quick. I never had to search for the sights like I do with most other rifles. It handles and swings as a good battle rifle should. Puts a lot of other rifles/guns to shame in the handling department. The Valmet Hunter was as sweet handling as any rifle, double or other wise that I have tried. More akin to a very good SxS shotgun.

For somebody else of a different build, training, things could well be different.


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Rule303
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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: NitroX]
      #387609 - 07/11/24 07:58 AM

Quote:

Watching the video, I'd probably shoot a buffalo too high in the head. I must one day look at a cross sectioned head or skull. From the video, the cartoon graphic image looks the brain position much lower than I'd expect. I reckon most guys would go for a between the eyes shot. Head held high, too high. Head held down, perhaps would work?

The video says, head held down, go for the spine.Something I've read but wouldn't consider. Now I would. The spine is bigger than the brain, wow.

Frontal chest shot. Depends on the angle as well. I've read the point of the V under the neck is the correct spot. On the fave of it, looks too low for me, but one must consider the angle of the same shot, looked at from the broadside view of the heart and lungs and spine, if it misses them all it is a slow kill shot and as Ganyana said, a nine hours follow up on a perky buffalo.

A broadside shot breaking the shoulder might not kill the buffalo but may disable a buffalo, orbslow it down a lot. The heart and lungs are also far easier shot.

I'd like to see some Big Game style paper targets feature some of the varying charging positions. Head up way high, the buffalo standing and looking at you, is the usual image. Head up charging would be a good variation. Head down charging is rarely a paper targets image but should be. How many of us would shoot at the spine above the head?

Another consideration. In the excitement of the hunt, follow up and charge, most of us shoot way too early, too far away. Looking at Ganyana's comment 15 yards is considered a long distance by him! Those "Mark Sullivan" brain shots can only be done at very close range. Or Ganyana's over the head spine shot. Who among us could wait that long and let it get that close.

I know with my water buffalo charge, it started at about 90 metres. When it stood up on the hill above me,mi shot and completely missed. It started the charge. I fired the second barrel. Probably hit it to no immediate effect. Empty rifle. Fuck, he's going to kill me! Reload the double, maybe run around this little tree and shoot it in the nose at the end of my muzzle as it chases me. It instead crashed past me at about 15 paces so used the one barrel loaded to put a broadside bullet in. Three hours, R0Five hours, follow up, up and down the creek, crossing to the other side, found it dead in the waist deep water.

Lessons:
1. Shoot better at 90 metres with my ,450 double. Take more time to make a good shot, missing byba metre, it must have been an excitement driven bad shot. One is also thinking, I must hit it before it runs away again.

2, Wait 30 minutes. Hard to do. But the water buffalo I'd shot in the back of the lungs area or forward gut was lying down. Found him on the hill under a tree lying down 5 to 10 minutes later. I didn't time it, Just set the position on the GPS and started following. We don't have skilled trackers, we need tondomit ourselves. Waiting 30 minutes that buffalo might have stiffened up, maybe bled to death? But without good trackers I think I'd still go straight away.

I had shot this buffalo broadside too far back, as a calf or younger buffalo's head pointing backwards, obscured most of the chest of the bull. I aimed to miss the nose of the young buffalo.

3. If shooting at long range a bolt action would have three to five shots available. Very useful at 90 metres. Several shots could be fired on a 90 metres charge.

4. If shooting to stop a charge WAIT for it to get real close. If with a double, you've used one barrel already, tough to face a charging bull at very close range with one barrelm alone.

This is where a double is far better. Two shots, instantly available at close range, Few bolt action shooters can emulate this, physically impossible,

5. Lastly, during the follow up, I was in the high grass for maybe 75 metres, END OF MUZZLE VISIBILITY. Big bore double rifle territory.

Practice reloading under pressure. Practice shooting charging targets under pressure. Big Game type charging targets shoots, maybe static, then charging, are a great practice discipline. Even better actual real life charging beasts. Pigs, running pugsm charging pigs, Charging scrub bulls, Scrub bulls are FAR more likely to charge than any other bovine IMO. Charging water buffalo, cape Buffalo, banteng. The real thing. I've never shot charging eleohant. Thankfully dropped them, frontal brain shots, before any charge,




I have to say, I agree with everything said here. I also think the Lessoned Learnt is good analyst of what went wrong and how to fix. This is the sort of thing I do and most good hunters that I know do. Some unfortunately do not give things a second thought.


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Re: Shot Placement on Charging Buffalo [Re: Rule303]
      #387617 - 07/11/24 07:12 PM

I've had two or three scrub bulls charges. Thank fully one m0 big giantbred bull came stomping down the hill looking for me. I'd shot it in the lungs or thereabouts, near the heart? Nit charged down the hill. But I was to the side and hid behind a large tree trunk. Reloaded. Peeked around the tree and shot it again with my .450 The bullet impact created a large cloud of vaporised blood from the earlier wound. It dropped immediately.

If I had the guts to stand out fully I might have created a Mark Sullivan charge. Graham Williams, said, "or it might have run away".

Wal a fellow client, his wife was filming for me. In the excitement she always stoped pointing the camera ...

Another bull came running, but slowly as it wasn't well. . But repeated shots stopped it.

Another bull didn't charge. But came a-running in answer to the shots at donkeys. Glared at me from above me on sbhil, maybe 30 yards. I had my BLR .308. Quickly loaded extra rounds into a magazine and swapped it into my rifle. Then carefully walked pass the hosting angry bull. At times like that you wonder if you can drop the bovine. The bull never did anything more.

My first water buffalo hunt, first bull was an angry bull glaring at Matt and I from not far away. Running away, he'd hooked a tree, brought it down and swung around coming at us. But stopped "20 yards" away. Glaring at us. Walked forward to us, we retreated backwards. Matt had jammed one of Bob Penfold's loaner .458 rifles. I had my .450 up and ready.cAdking Matt if I should take him as a trophy. An of broomed tip bull. The bull came striding forwards several times. We retreated every time. Eventually decided to nitvshoot the bull.

Not a charge, or one pushed to the end. He did have his head high. So a nose shot. I did wonder if two shots at so close was enough. Did a Hemingway and put two cartridges through the fingers of my left hand, for a quick reload.

At times like this even a big gun feels small.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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