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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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Vintage_Canvas
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Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Opinions on the great Norma calibers
      #386335 - 14/08/24 04:35 AM

Its been a while since i posted guys, but recently I have been playing around with the idea of building a pair of custom rifles in the 308 Norma magnum and the 358 Norma magnum. Any ideas on what actions to use, barrel lenght, style etc would be welcome....
also reloading info, best bullet weight and powders...
I have done some research online, and both calibers seem great for our type of hunting African plains game!
As far as new rifles that was sold in these calibers, only Schultz & larsen and Husqvarna made them??
love to have your input!

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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93x64mm
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #386336 - 14/08/24 06:22 AM

VC
You won't go wrong with either cartridge!
I have a Parker Hale 1200 rebarrelled to .308NM, nominal barrel length being 26". Any large Mauser action or similar will suffice.
Looking at loading data they are more efficient than the .300WM, but in all honesty there is nothing between them! The original factory short .30 magnum, the .308NM predates the now more readily available Winny mag. Its a shame really, its a fantastic cartridge, all down to marketing really!

I've only used 180gn & 178gn A-Max Hornady projectiles, all shoot to the same POI at 100m.
A note to all here, I have had my throat lengthened so my loads are over listed maximum.
76gn of AR2213SC for either projectile, getting 3020 & 3070fps respectively, Federal 215 primers & loaded to 85.4mm OAL which just fits inside my magazine.
Yes the Norma brass is outstanding, I've lost track on the reloads they've done with them, they get an annealing every so often, no more split necks now.
The A-Max being slightly more accurate - 3 shots going into 23mm.
So start at least 5% down from there & work up.

AR2209 doesn't work at all in my rifle at all, the groups were horrendous!
Norma 180gn yellow tipped ammo clock 3060fps in my rifle & consistently do 25mm 3 shots groups.
I have an old Outdoors magazine somewhere at home, dated in the 1960's, Parker Hale did bring them out then on Mauser actions - hence why I went the way I did!
Best of luck with the build, it can be a bit finnicky to load for as is any cartridge at times, slower powders are far better anyway.

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DarylS
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: 93x64mm]
      #386337 - 14/08/24 06:29 AM

Back in the 1970's, I bought a ZKK 602 BRNO in .358 Normal Mag. IIRC, the barrel was 25" long & it easily achieved 2,750fps with 250gr. Speers and 2,600fps with 280gr. Hornadys, back in those same 1970's. I had an Oehler M12, the first chronograph with "sky screens".
The only thing I shot with it, was coyotes and targets. Killed them both.
This rifle excelled in the accuracy department with those Speer spitzers and 3031 powder. I made many groups at 100yards shooting beside my BRest mentor, Alex Bulhman, in the 3/8" to 1/2" range.
I suspect it is not a great deal different on game than a .338 Win Mag.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rule303
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #386339 - 14/08/24 08:57 AM

I have long wanted a 358Norma but went down the road of a 35 Sambar (358-325WSM) and a 358-338RUM.

I don't know what powders you have but 2800 fps should easily be attainable with a 250 grain projectile and modern powders.

I like the M17 actions but they are big and heavy and have become hard to find. I also like the Brno/CZ actions. As said any good Mauser Action should do the job. If Musgrave is still going look at their actions, might be easiest for you to get.

Bullet wise, do not follow Normas mistake and use bullets for a 358W, too soft. The Woodleigh's or similar in soft nose, or any of the Mono metals.

If you can get the Australian made ADI powders there email ADI powders and ask if you can use BM8208. This works well in the Whelen, but have yet to look at it for the lighter bullets in the 35 Sambar and 358RUM

In my 35 Sambar 73 Grains of AR2209 drives a 250 grain bullet at 2700fps this is why I think the Norma should easily drive a 250 grain bullet at 2800fps.

Edited by Rule303 (14/08/24 09:25 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Rule303]
      #386340 - 14/08/24 10:05 AM

I agree, Greg. 2,700fps with a 250gr. is easy with many powders in the .358 Normal Mag. Norma lists their 250gr. Oryx(bonded) at 2,756fps. I assume that is a factory load.
For that load, they give 2.1" high at 100yds. zero'd at 200 and 9" load at 300yards.
Historically:

"Mar 29, 2024 — The .358 was factory loaded with a 250-grain roundnose bullet, at 2,790 feet per second

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: DarylS]
      #386344 - 15/08/24 04:09 AM

thanks for the quick response guys!
so far Rule 303, I look at a Musgrave RSA rifle in 30-06 as the doner rifle for the 308 NM.
I test the magazine box with 300 win mag ammo and they fit in the lenght. Thou the mag is only taking 3 rounds. For those of you that dont know the Musgrave RSA actions, it was the 1st action designed and manufactured by Musgrave in the early 70's. Very strong and very accurate. They made a single shot in 308 for the Bisley guys and was at the time one of the most accurate rifles for long range shooting out of the box! so for the hunting rifle they open up the bottom of reciever for a mag box and the top of reciever so eject emptys better. They also use better wood for the stocks with checkering etc.
I will try and post some pics of samples of these rifles and somewhere I have an old article...
as far as the 358 NM is concerned.... I look at a 35 whelen donor? Barrel is still brand new. Mag box is long enough and wood is nice! After reading above what I can get with 250gr bullets, I start to get exited!! Even 270gr and 300gr can become a option in the 358NM??

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #386345 - 15/08/24 04:15 AM

Some photos of a Musgrave 30-06










--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #386346 - 15/08/24 04:17 AM

Another one in 308











--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
Posts: 89
Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #386347 - 15/08/24 04:23 AM

As you can see it is a mix between a mauser 98 and a winchester pre 64. both controle round feed.
Very strong action.
the 308 is one of the first rifles made by Musgrave and is almost like a test rifle. Was lucky to pick it up for a bargain! Very accurate with any ammo or reloads! Heavy barrel and tight action.
I manage to pick up a same rifle in 30-06 with a longer mag box for the 308NM. same type of barrel.

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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DarylS
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #386351 - 15/08/24 05:36 AM

I would suggest 2,475fps to 2,500fps is likely doable with a good 300gr. bullet in the .358 Norma Mag.
I get 2,474fps with 300gr. Norma, Hornady and Sierra bullets in my .376/06IMP. with only 80gr. capacity.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: DarylS]
      #386352 - 15/08/24 05:47 AM

Looking quickly at the 30-06 rifle I thought you'd scored a Parker Hale - nearly same style stock with same type checkering!
If you have a rather heavy barrel you might be able to simply ream a new chamber into 308NM!
No wonder you're getting excited, great project(s) to start!

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Rule303
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #386355 - 15/08/24 06:27 AM

If you can find a 35Whelen as a donor action for the 358Norma that would be good. All you would need would be to rechamber it. I prefer rifles with long magazines so I can long throat the chamber and seat the bullets well out. Better velocity with no, for the layman, noticeable increase in pressure/recoil. But where this stands out is with the heavier/longer bullets.

I have done some, but not much load development with the 358RUM with the 275 and 310 grain Woodleigh bullets. I'll track down the data I have later in the day and let you know what I have achieved so far. They are a viable option in the 35Whelen and 350Rigby Magnum, which can safely be loaded to match the 358Norma.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Rule303]
      #386359 - 15/08/24 10:45 AM

The only thing that may be less than ideal in opening up a 35 Whelan chamber to 358 NM is that the barrel twist rate may be way to slow for bullets heavier than 225 grain at the velocities being discussed. From memory 1-16 was the original twist rate, this of course could vary depending on who made the gun or if its even the original barrel in the gun. I would check the twist rate of any potential purchase first before buying.

Matt.

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There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Rule303
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #386369 - 15/08/24 08:18 PM

Very good point Matt. I think Rem's twist rate for their Whelen was 1:16 In all my 35's I have a 1:12 twist rate.

In the 358RUM, 310 grain bullet: 90grains AR2217, 2525fps Max load with this powder. 84 grains AR2213sc, 2515 fps. Max load.

275 grain Bullet: 87 grains AR2209,2850fps.

I know the 358 Norma will not match the 358RUM (I have not tested most useable powder in it so info is limited) but slower velocities with the Norma with the heavy projectiles should not disappoint.

In the 35Sambar 275 grain bullet, 70grains of AR2209 gives me 2580fps. This is the area I would expect the 358 Norma to be in, probably a tad faster depending on powder.

All these bullets I have used are Woodleigh's.

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Rule303]
      #386401 - 17/08/24 02:59 PM

Thanks for all the info guys.
I will look at the Whelen's twist rate! it might be a deal breaker...
The 30-06 will work for the 308 Norma, and it would be a simple reaming job.
On the 358 Norma, I am still looking for a Schultz & Larsen rifle.... They were one of the few that made them in the 358 Norma!

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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Rolf
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #387273 - 16/10/24 08:44 PM

Hello Mr. Vintage_Canvas,

here some personal information for these useful, but nearly obsolete cartridges:

- the .308 Norma would benefit from a longer-than-standard-Mauser98-length-action to set heavier bullets further out / rising the OAL

- for the .308 Norma and a 60cm barrel I used powders in the range of Dynamit Nobel Rottweil R904 and Kemira N160 for the 180grs bullets

- there was an article in the booklet "Big Bore Compendium" dealing with the .358 Norma, and the author was the opinion that even a 58cm barrel would be ok. He also suggested to use medium burning powders like the range of Kemira N140.

I once tested a rifle buildt by Krieghoff in Ulm on the basis of a FN 98 system with a 58cm (23") barrel in a heavier configuration (19,5mm at the muzzle).
This rifle was a delight to handle, very precise and did not lose much velocity on the factory ammunition of Norma:
Box information: 250grs Soft Point bullet @ 853 m/s
measured velocity / 50cm barrel: 841 m/s

- the brass forming for the .358 Norma M. out of new factory brass .338 Win. Mag. was very easy, the formed cases produced after fireforming very accurate ammunition, 5 shots at 100m below 40mm are common, if the shooter des not flinch...

- and I enjoy shooting heavier pistol bullets in the 358 Norma for training with reduced loads, of course!

best regards
Rolf

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DarylS
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Rolf]
      #387282 - 17/10/24 02:29 AM

I recall using 63gr. IMR3031 with the 200gr. Speer Spitzer in my .358 Norma Mag. At that time, I was interested in purely bench-rest accuracy with it and using that load, with a CCI200 primer, I was making 5 shot groups sub .5" at 100 yards.
I do not know what the vel. would have been.
I suspect it was running only in the 2,800fps range, maybe as fast as 2,900fps, though.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: DarylS]
      #387283 - 17/10/24 03:41 AM

Thank you Rolf and Daryl for the input! At this point I will do the 308 Norma project and try and see how it go?? I tested the doner rifle mag box and lenght and it will work fine with longer bullets in the 220gr range! Even the monolitics.
Then I will go with the 358 project...
I manage to get this on the internet:
https://www.handloadermagazine.com/the-heavyweight-358-norma

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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DarylS
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Re: Opinions on the great Norma calibers [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #387285 - 17/10/24 05:36 AM

Interesting to see the .35 Rem. ballistics with the 200gr. RN bullet.
I checked a VERY old Hornady manual which has 4 loads for a 250gr. RN Hornady bullet to 2,800fps.
It also has 275gr. Hornady RN data with 5 loads(dif. pdrs) to 2,600fps.
I have a written in load listed for 300gr. at 2,670fps. I suspect this was from a gun magazine article from the 1970's.
In it's normal front page description writeup, Hornady notes that Norma brought out this ctg. in 1959.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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