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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target
      #386317 - 12/08/24 08:01 PM

Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target

I'm bound to create some controversy with this post, but I've been doing this for 3 years. Black powder and black powder substitutes are not to my liking. Those have too much mess and too much to clean-up afterwards. By studying low pressure smokeless loads in my Nitro-for-Black double rifles, I've come up with a smokeless load for my Remington UML. THIS POST IS TO TELL WHAT I HAVE DONE AND NOT TO RECOMMEND OTHERS TO TRY THIS - This is the ONLY model muzzle loading rifle that I would dare to try to use smokeless powder. The Remington 700 UML is a true 700 action with a special barrel and breech. (see pics) The UML is so much like a conventional Model 700 that BATF requires it has to be purchased through a Licensed Federal Firearms Dealer, just like a regular modern centerfire rifle. Unfortunately the UML has been discontinued and those on the used market are going for about double their original retail price.

My loading procedure is as follows ..... I pour 38g of AA5744 down the barrel - then I push the "sabot only" down the barrel, seating it HARD in one continuous stroke - then I drop the bullet down the barrel and seat it into the sabot with 8 firm raps - finally, I insert the Remington special primed brass case into the chamber. By seating the sabot separately, without the bullet, its much easier to load than trying to force the sabot with the bullet inside down the barrel. I consider 38g of AA5744 safe and MAXIMUM in my rifle. At just over 1900 fps its a good load for my area. It covers zero to 200 yards which is the maximum range for hunting whitetail deer on my hunting land. My rifle is sighted 4-1/4" high at 100yds, which is 4-1/4" low at 200yds. So zero to 200yds I aim at the top of the heart. (at 225 yards, the bullet would strike about 9 inches below aiming point)

With the rifle sighted dead-on at 170 yards, the target below shows a 3/4" 3-shot group at 100 yards. (bullets strike above center aiming) The measured velocity was 1908fps average. (sd was 7fps) - Velocities were measured using a Garman Xero C1 Doopler Radar Chronograph - velocity accurate to with 0.10 fps. The 3 circles below center show the expected impact at 200 yards.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/50muz-info.jpg



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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85lc
.400 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1031
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: buckstix]
      #386318 - 13/08/24 02:24 AM

buckstix,

Interesting. Very good group and velocity. Thanks for sharing.

I assume you are doing that so you can deer hunt in muzzleloader season, is that correct?

I believe that Savage also made a smokeless "muzzle loader" but understood that some people may have had issues with that rifle. I assume is was loader/shooter error.

--------------------
RB


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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: 85lc]
      #386320 - 13/08/24 03:36 AM

Quote:

buckstix,

Interesting. Very good group and velocity. Thanks for sharing.

I assume you are doing that so you can deer hunt in muzzleloader season, is that correct?


Yes, we have a 10 day muzzle loader season following the regular 9 day rifle season. Add that to the early and late archery season, I hunted 110 days last Fall.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: buckstix]
      #386321 - 13/08/24 05:35 AM

Savage made one, however those owners who experimented with other than recommended powders and charges, blew up the rifles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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85lc
.400 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1031
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: DarylS]
      #386324 - 13/08/24 06:41 AM

Daryl,

That is what I remember. Of course, the owner tried to say he used only the recommended charge but that blowup and coverup fib hurt Savage's sales. Supposedly the Savage was a very good gun.

I cannot imagine either Savage, Remington or other major manufacturers selling a firearm that could blow up with recommendd charges.

--------------------
RB


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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
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Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: 85lc]
      #386325 - 13/08/24 09:28 AM

IIRC, the recommended powder was H110 OR perhaps that is the powder that caused the blowup.
The Remington rifle displayed is quite different than the Savage.
That smokeless powder seems to work for buckstix is worth noting.
His ballistics seem quite moderate, ie: low pressure. IIRC data provided by Accurate Arms years ago, gave vel. in the .50/70 ctg. safe for Sharps rifles giving 1,850fps speeds to 450gr. bullets with 5744. Might have been 2015, though??
A lot of water under the bridge since I saw that data.
I don't quite understand the loading sequence due to the insertion of the weird peiming ctg case AFTER powder and bullet are loaded.
This makes sense from the safety aspect, but I don't understand the rifle barrel's breach construction, considering the force compacting the powder when seating the bullet, yet afterwards allowing the priming ctg. to be inserted.
Is there another "wall" between the priming ctg. and the powder chamber. If so why doesn't powder get into that area before the priming ctg is chambered.
In the picture, the priming ctg. appeared almost solid in construction.
How does that get "chambered" if compressed powder is in that area?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: DarylS]
      #386332 - 13/08/24 08:48 PM

Hello DarylS,

Safety is the reason for not priming the rifle before loading. I updated the image to show the breech plug. The 5744 Powder that is poured down the barrel rests against the face of the breech plug and the powder kernels are large enough so they do not pass through the tiny hole that passes through the plug.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: buckstix]
      #386333 - 14/08/24 01:22 AM

I wondered about the weird internal shape of priming case. I see the breech plug is what stops the powder from entering the area of the priming case.

Thanks.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: DarylS]
      #386334 - 14/08/24 03:05 AM

NOT weird internal shape of the priming case - its simply a cut down 308 brass case that slips over the breech plug nipple, and seats against the cases flash hole.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: buckstix]
      #386338 - 14/08/24 06:34 AM

Yes - you are right, it's the weird breech plug.
That tiny hole would be a HUGE restrictor in letting pressure back into the priming case or against the primer. Excellent design. Appears all there would be is against the primer cup, but through that tiny hole, miniscule.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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sharps4590
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Reged: 09/03/16
Posts: 270
Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: DarylS]
      #386343 - 15/08/24 04:04 AM

Then why bother with a muzzleloader at all? Legit question, not being a smart aleck.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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DarylSModerator
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Posts: 26998
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Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: sharps4590]
      #386348 - 15/08/24 04:23 AM

Extended season, I assume.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target [Re: sharps4590]
      #386349 - 15/08/24 04:25 AM

Quote:

Then why bother with a muzzleloader at all? Legit question, not being a smart aleck.


Because, after our 9 day rifle deer season, we have a 10 day muzzleloader season. And, you can only shoot a deer if you didn't get one during the gun season.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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