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93x64mm
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: buckstix]
#385607 - 05/07/24 06:02 AM

Would be best then to start a new 11.2x72 page with the loads above & your range tests, putting it all in one spot for reference for would be users of this wonderful old cartridge.
Beats my 404J load with VARGET (AR2208) by 100fps!

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grandveneur
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#385609 - 05/07/24 08:25 AM

All of these theoretical contributions are very nice, but I would prefer something practical from hunters who have loaded and used such cartridges for hunting. Unfortunately, such contributions are missing and various considerations about theoretical load data do not get us anywhere. For years I have missed anyone saying on a Forum that they have shot big game with such cartridges. For that I read posts from people trying to explain to me how good this cartridges could be with various loads that they have read from various books. Keep on having fun.

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: grandveneur]
#385610 - 05/07/24 09:46 AM

It seems that the World is full of nay-sayers when posting about the 11.2x72 Schuler cartridge.

But this post is about a very fine rifle that was recently acquired - not the rifle's cartridge efficiency.

Basically "all" published loading data is "theoretical" as a guide to the reloader. But when comparing apples to apples, History still showed that the 11.2x72 Schuler was an effective Big Game cartridge by German hunters in Africa.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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NitroX
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
#385614 - 05/07/24 04:26 PM

Yes.

I'm a bit confused about why one rifle calibre/cartridge with certain ballistics, velocities, bullet weight, bullet construction, is going to be different in hunting results to a very similar calibre/cartridge.

The .404 Jeffery, .416 Rigby, .425 WR, .450/400, .416 C-T, etc, occupy the same sort of ballistics. Within certain bullet weight and calibre range. All perform very similar. So the fact users aren't writing magazine articles or historical books isn't that significant for actual game hunting,

A main difference can be the lesser known bullet selection and if the well constructed bullets are available or not.

The good thing about forums is people sharing for others enjoyment their rifles, guns, hunts. And spirited constructive polite debates when warranted.

***

I've changed the thread title mainly for future reference and search purposes :

"EDIT: I've edited the title to "I Bought an unknown-hope it is a 404 Jeffery/ its a 11.2x72" to reflect the thread's result. For future reference. "

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (05/07/24 08:09 PM)

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grandveneur
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
#385617 - 05/07/24 04:38 PM

Quote:

It seems that the World is full of nay-sayers when posting about the 11.2x72 Schuler cartridge.

But this post is about a very fine rifle that was recently acquired - not the rifle's cartridge efficiency.

Basically "all" published loading data is "theoretical" as a guide to the reloader. But when comparing apples to apples, History still showed that the 11.2x72 Schuler was an effective Big Game cartridge by German hunters in Africa.

I did not start the discussion about the cartridge 11,2 x72 Schüler and its load but answered the question of @NitroX. This resulted in other posts about the topic. We are on a Forum. I am not a no-sayer because I have used this cartridge for hunting and want to continue to use it. That's also why I had bullets made for it. With a right practical load it is certainly an efficient cartridge for big game hunting, but whether many hunters have used it is another question. Harald Wolf tried to find out something like this but was only able to publish very little about in his magazine HATARI TIMES. None of this should take away the fun of a newly acquired nice rifle.

Edited by NitroX (05/07/24 08:10 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: grandveneur]
#385645 - 07/07/24 05:57 AM

Hello All, and NitroX,

Well, I'm back from the range today. My results are below, highlighted in RED. I loaded conservative between "normal" and "near maximum" as shown in the loading data that I had posted earlier. That data was from Rifle Magazine; Issue #144 - November, 1992 - The last data shown below is from Pierre van der Walt's book "African Dangerous Game Cartridges". It also shows a load with H-4895 powder for the 11.2x72 Schuler.

I loaded using new Bertram Brass with Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primers and an overall loaded length of 3.290 inches. Powder was slightly compressed when seating the bullets. All fired brass showed NO signs of excessive pressure with easy extraction. Fired primers had normal rounded edges and were NOT flattened. (velocities were measured using a Garman Xero C1 Doopler Radar Chronograph - muzzle velocity accurate to with 0.10 fps)

Recoil energy with this 9 lb 15 oz rifle was a pleasant 61 ft/lbs.

Its important to note: this field test data is NOT a "theoretical contribution", it is "something practical" that proves velocities at or above 2400 fps are easily obtainable with the 11.2x72 Schuler cartridge - at least with this rifle. Based on my test, I would not hesitate to accept all the other published loading data as "doable" in my rifle. (maybe similar powders and components are not available outside the U.S.)

Wt. - Bullet - Powder Mfg - Powder - Charge - Velocity

401 Star softpoint - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 83.0 - 2,374
Remarks:

401g - Woodleigh softpoint - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 83.0g - 2,401 fps
Remarks:

401 Star softpoint - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 85.0 2,448
Remarks: near maximum

401 Star solid - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 82.0 - 2,368
Remarks:

401g - Woodleigh solid - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 83.0g - 2,410 fps
Remarks:

401 Star solid - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 84.0 - 2,436
Remarks: near maximum
.

400 not identified - Hodgdon - H-4995 - 85.0 - 2,448

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/IMMAN-TARG.jpg

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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93x64mm
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
#385646 - 07/07/24 06:14 AM

Well done mate getting a range report done in swift order!
Now there is verified evidence that these loads are achievable in 2 rifles, so if anyone else in the world is now looking for data then they have a goal to work to thanks to you mate!
Glad to see you got your little 'surprise' packet going so well, it really is a powerful round be told, more than capable of taking dangerous game if loaded with proper projectiles matched to the task!

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Rule303
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: 93x64mm]
#385649 - 07/07/24 09:06 AM

Well that rifle shoots very well. I am surprised the Woodleigh Solids were so close in performance to the softs. Just because the solids have a steel jacket under the copper.

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: Rule303]
#385652 - 07/07/24 12:01 PM

Quote:

Well done mate getting a range report done in swift order!
Now there is verified evidence that these loads are achievable in 2 rifles, so if anyone else in the world is now looking for data then they have a goal to work to thanks to you mate!
Glad to see you got your little 'surprise' packet going so well, it really is a powerful round be told, more than capable of taking dangerous game if loaded with proper projectiles matched to the task!

I was going to wait till next week for field testing, but I felt it important to prove my point as soon as possible. That point being that the 11.2x72 Schuler "today" if far superior than most people realize. Bad press from many years ago, and long repeated urban legends, has needlessly slandered the reputation of this cartridge.

Quote:

Well that rifle shoots very well. I am surprised the Woodleigh Solids were so close in performance to the softs. Just because the solids have a steel jacket under the copper.

I too was surprised - that the average velocity of the solids, was higher than the softs.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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NitroX
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
#385656 - 07/07/24 03:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well done mate getting a range report done in swift order!
Now there is verified evidence that these loads are achievable in 2 rifles, so if anyone else in the world is now looking for data then they have a goal to work to thanks to you mate! ...

... That point being that the 11.2x72 Schuler "today" is far superior than most people realize. Bad press from many years ago, and long repeated urban legends, has needlessly slandered the reputation of this cartridge.

Quote:

Well that rifle shoots very well. I am surprised the Woodleigh Solids were so close in performance to the softs. Just because the solids have a steel jacket under the copper.

I too was surprised - that the average velocity of the solids, was higher than the softs.

From memory, I think it has been recommended to reduce the FMJ load by one grain. Due to the thick jacket.

Those groups look very good. I wonder if slightly less velocities will raise or lower the FMJ bullet impact. Usable as is, I'd sight it point of aim at 100 yards for the FMJ. An inch plus for the SP. While the SP would be used most, the FMJ is the serious bullet for serious times. Up to 100 metres. Just aim dead on.

BTW what is the exact inch calibre diameter? (Answered at the Woodleigh website 11.2 Schuler .440".) And thanks to GV and yourself for the information on the cartridge and ballistics. Amazing and useful that GV also has an rifle chambered in the same cartridge. Very rare. And earlier information by the other expert contributors

Well done. I'd never heard of the 11.2x72mm before. I like the idea of unique unusual but very usable cartridge chamberings. Except if you ever need to replace lost ammunition. Then one would want the most common cartridges available.

Well done again. Not a .404 but an even rarer and useful 11.2x72 Schuler.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (07/07/24 03:56 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: NitroX]
#385665 - 07/07/24 09:22 PM

Quote:

From memory, I think it has been recommended to reduce the FMJ load by one grain. Due to the thick jacket.

Yes, in actual use I would reduce loads to achieve 2200 to 2250 fps, which I believe would be adequate in the field. My "fun" load for the 11.2x72 Schuler is 55g AA5744 for a velocity of 2025 fps.

Quote:

Those groups look very good. I wonder if slightly less velocities will raise or lower the FMJ bullet impact. Usable as is, I'd sight it point of aim at 100 yards for the FMJ. An inch plus for the SP. While the SP would be used most, the FMJ is the serious bullet for serious times. Up to 100 metres. Just aim dead on.

If I was preparing for a hunt, I would taylor the loads as you suggest. For this field test I left the scope sighted as received. Before I put the gun away, I clicked the scope adjustments to better position the groups for the next outing.

Quote:

BTW what is the exact inch calibre diameter? (Answered at the Woodleigh website 11.2 Schuler .440".) And thanks to GV and yourself for the information on the cartridge and ballistics. Amazing and useful that GV also has an rifle chambered in the same cartridge. Very rare. And earlier information by the other expert contributors

Yes, bullets are .440" diameter. I have 3 rifles in this caliber. I posted some last year about my first rifle here on this forum. Its an original Schuler built rifle. ...

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=374726

And here is the post on this forum last year about my 2nd rifle in 11.2x72 Schuler caliber. This rifle is a very rare original Peterlongo built rifle in remarkable condition. Both of these earlier posts give a lot of details about the cartridge and bullets for the caliber.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=mauserforum&Number=375238

Quote:

Well done. I'd never heard of the 11.2x72mm before. I like the idea of unique unusual but very usable cartridge chamberings. Except if you ever need to replace lost ammunition. Then one would want the most common cartridges available.

Well done again. Not a .404 but an even rarer and useful 11.2x72 Schuler.

You are correct. Other calibers are much more practical with better ammo availability. The 11.2x72 Schuler is limited to hand-loading custom ammo. And whats really disappointing is Woodleigh discontinuing bullets in .440" diameter because of low demand. Bullets are still available from HAWK and CUTTING EDGE. However the CUTTING EDGE bullets are lathe turned solids and are very long and cannot achieve the velocities obtainable with HAWK and Woodleigh bullets. If other shooters here in the U.S. need .440" bullets for their rifles, I can bump-up .422" bullets to .440" with my Corbin swage dies. (Softs only - NOT solids - see the Peterlongo link above)

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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NitroX
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
#385673 - 08/07/24 01:46 AM

Thanks. I remember now, the Peterlongo thread in particular. And it was 11.2x72. I remember the cartridge but it's place in the scheme of things didn't register of stick.

Seeing the .440" Woodleigh bullet catalogue item, I did wonder how much demand existed. I fear other low demand catalogue lines may not be continued. Since the fire we can be thankful for the bullets which are again being made.

I note the catalogue lists FMJs as still not available. Obviously delays making these.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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grandveneur
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: NitroX]
#385680 - 08/07/24 02:29 AM

Due to the wall thickness, the 401gr SP bullet from Woodleigh is just enough for buffalo hunting. If you need classic bullets of this caliber suitable for big game hunting, you can contact Wim Degol in Belgium who recently made for me by order 11,2mm 401gr FMJ bullets, but I don't know how long Mr. Degol will be active.

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: grandveneur]
#385681 - 08/07/24 03:26 AM

Hello,

Well, I went back to the range today. The reason being that I ran out of Hodgdon 4895 powder that I tested yesterday. I searched all the shops within the State and the also the internet. Every place was sold out - even the Hodgdon web site was sold out. I had several pounds of IMR 4895 which is a tad slower burning. Since I could not find any loading data for this powder, I thought I'd establish some.

Once again I loaded using new Bertram Brass with Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primers and an overall loaded length of 3.290 inches. Powder was slightly compressed when seating the bullets. All fired brass showed NO signs of excessive pressure with easy extraction. And again fired primers had normal rounded edges and were NOT flattened. (velocities were measured using a Garman Xero C1 Doopler Radar Chronograph - muzzle velocity accurate to with 0.10 fps)

With this slower burning powder recoil energy was reduced to a pleasant 60 ft/lbs. (one ft/lb less)

This field test again proves velocities approaching 2400 fps are obtainable with the 11.2x72 Schuler cartridge in this rifle. Remember, results in other rifles may vary, so reduce your starting loads and work your way up as required.

Wt. - Bullet - Powder Mfg - Powder - Charge - Velocity

401g - Woodleigh softpoint - IMR - IMR-4895 - 83.0g - 2,373 fps

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/IMMAN-TARG-1.jpg

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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93x64mm
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
#385683 - 08/07/24 08:40 AM

Yahoo!
Well done Buckstix!

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eagle27
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: 93x64mm]
#385684 - 08/07/24 09:20 AM

Buckstix you may be aware that much of Hodgdon powder is manufactured in Australia, just relabeled as Hodgdon for the US market. H4895 is aka AR2206H. Here in NZ at least we can buy both Hodgdon and AR labeled versions of the same powder. Not sure if AR labeled powders are sold in the States but if you can't find H4895 look for the same powder as AR2206H.

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DarylS
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: eagle27]
#385685 - 08/07/24 10:02 AM

Only tje H versions are available here in Canada, as far as I can tell. I suspect the same for the US of A.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rule303
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
#385687 - 08/07/24 11:04 AM

Buckstix that is nicely done.

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: grandveneur]
#385707 - 10/07/24 09:57 AM

Quote:

Due to the wall thickness, the 401gr SP bullet from Woodleigh is just enough for buffalo hunting. If you need classic bullets of this caliber suitable for big game hunting, you can contact Wim Degol in Belgium who recently made for me by order 11,2mm 401gr FMJ bullets, but I don't know how long Mr. Degol will be active.

Hello,
How would I get 50 to 100 of his bullets for the 11.2?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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grandveneur
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
#385725 - 10/07/24 08:14 PM

I sent you the E-Mail address of Vim Degol.

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown-hope its a 404 Jeffery/ its 11.2x72 [Re: grandveneur]
#385728 - 11/07/24 01:08 AM

thank you ... I have plenty of woodleigh soft points, but used up the woodleigh solids. I also have some RWS softs and a few RWS solids, but would like some other solids for testing.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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